


FOURTH SESSION / 


FOURTH SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	5, 6 AND 7 MAY 1997
								









								
								

	VOLUME 2 	1997







SPINE:	VOLUME 2 1997







		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	MONDAY, 5 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 11:00 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE ACTING SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:
  
2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE ACTING SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make at this stage.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

The hon ~Inkosi~ ~Ngubane~.

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Hon Sir and the hon House,  I have been asked by the hon Premier to extend his apology to your hon House, that today he has attending the National Budget Council in Cape Town.  It is therefore impossible for him to report to our Legislature today.  Thank you, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you for that announcement. 

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

The hon Mr Makhaye.

MR MAKHAYE:   Mr Speaker, I table the report of the Finance Committee.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

The hon Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	That this House request the Minister of Safety and Security, as a matter of urgency, to take steps to bolster and expand the Police Reserve system in this Province and thereby to harness the participation of civilians in active service to fight the growing crime wave, in the Province.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr I C Meer.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, I shall be moving the following motion at the next sitting of this House:

	This House notes with satisfaction that the Liberation History Foundation will observe the life and times of this Province's great son Anton Muziwakhe Lembede who died 50 years ago at the age of 33.  Anton Lembede triumphed in adversity to become the brilliant co-founder of the ANC Youth League together with Nelson Mandela, A P Mda, Walter Sisulu, Jordan K Ngubane and others.  His memory remains fresh with those who survived him.  We want his life thoughts and times to be recorded in our history for the present and future generations.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  Any further motions?  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this hon House notes with appreciation the following comments:

	1.	By the hon State President, Mr Nelson Mandela, at the Agricultural Show Grounds in Pietermaritzburg on 24 April 1997 said that restitution of land rights will heal the wounds of ~apartheid~.

	2.	By the hon Minister of Home Affairs and the President of the Inkatha Freedom Party at the Kings Park Soccer Stadium on Freedom Day, 27 April 1997 said that the wounds of ~apartheid~ must be healed.

	That it also be noted that the greatest human misery, economic deprivation, social impoverishment and the disruption of family life was caused by the notorious Group Areas Act and other racially-based legislation.

	That it also be noted with concern that the pace of land restitution in our Province appears to be too slow and that outdated bureaucrats in Provincial and Local Government are out of touch with reality on all matters affecting the restitution of land rights and demand market value in cases of restitution.

	Therefore it be resolved to request the hon Minister of Housing of this hon House to ensure that all State land and State financed land be made available for restitution purposes at prices that befit restitution and that political parties that control Local Governments are not misled by outdated officials and outdated political parties.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Any further motions?  In view of the fact that there are no further motions I wish to announce that the House now converts into committee.  I find myself in a difficult position because I have been acting as Speaker up to now but I have to assume the role of Chairperson since the House is now converting into Committee.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  When the budget debate, the primary budget debate is debated the House does not go into Committee.  The House only goes into Committee when the individual budget votes are debated.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is correct.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, thank you for that, Mr Volker.  We will go on to the general budget debate and on my speaker's list I have the hon Minister J Zuma as the first speaker for 30 minutes.


BUDGET: KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members of the House.  At first, when I saw my colleague ~Inkosi~ ~Ngubane~ standing up when you called for the Premier, I thought..... [LAUGHTER]  But I was happy to hear the announcement that he was asking for apologies on behalf of the Premier. 

Mr Speaker, in debating the budget of our Province, I would want to start by saying it is now three years since the establishment of the Government of National Unity, and the establishment of the Government of Provincial Unity in our Province.  A step in our view which marked the departure from the old system to a new system, and indeed as we saw the National budget being presented in Parliament, a clear indication that we are now well into the first five years of our new South Africa and therefore budgets are beginning to show that indeed we are travelling forward and we are managing to deal with the governance of our country and us here in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal we are also managing to move forward.

KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Government, I believe very sincerely, that it has in many ways showed maturity in the handling of matters of the Province.  Some of these have been tough matters and some of them very delicate, but I think we have indicated we are ready to undertake the tasks as given to us in the Province.

I have said this before and I think it is important to touch upon it again, that the manner in which different political parties as represented in this Parliament, have shown their commitment in producing good governance in this Province.  We have done what in other places might be very difficult.  We have not misled one another by pretending to be agreeing when we are not agreeing.  We have been able to discuss and debate the issues vigorously and actually we have left no stone unturned on matters of governance.  We have done this within the area of responsibility as leaders and as Government of the Province.

I would like to believe that at the beginning many would have thought this Province would fall apart, it would never be governable, given the tensions that existed before the establishment of the Provincial Government of Unity.  It is therefore I think important to underline this particular point.  I have often said we could be an example to many levels of Government here in terms of practising multi-party democracy.

No political voice in this House can say it has never been heard.  Whether you come from the bigger parties or from the smaller parties, in fact I think the smaller parties have had an opportunity to express themselves even more than the bigger parties.  I think that has been an indication of our willingness, all of us, to work together and see that multi-party democracy works.  No party can say, "I have never been listened to" or "I have been bulldozed".  We have tried to follow the procedures and therefore makes me think our Provincial Legislature deserves the dignity it has earned.

It is not very often that people who are understood to hold different political views are able to debate matters and take decisions.  I must say in the majority of cases we have reached consensus on a number of difficult issues.  I think that marks the maturity that I have spoken about, of the leadership in this House in handling matters that have been very, very difficult.  I think credit must of necessity go to the ANC of course.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  I believe that if the ANC had wanted to be troublesome, there would be more trouble certainly, given its voice that is second to the majority party.  It is from that point of view, a correct point of view indeed, and I am sure everybody will agree with me.

I would want to believe that we have done what I have just sketched very briefly in the last three years.  I do not think anyone would now have a doubt that we cannot govern.  I want to say it has indicated that we here as the political leadership in this Province, are ready to work and co-operate with any political party that might come into power.  I do not think anyone could doubt that reality in our Province now.  Of course one of the issues that I believe is important to underline in this important debate, is the issue of the peace process in the Province and the necessity of stability and the unity of our people in particular.

This matter remains the critical issue on the agenda of our Province.  Particularly with the political leaders, and more specifically the IFP and the ANC for when all is said and done, when all important matters have been discussed relating to policies of different parties, programmes of Government at different levels, when budgets have been agreed to, the last fundamental question that remains facing all of us is the question of peace and stability.

Are all these good policies, good rational budgets etcetera, implementable?  Do we have the conditions that allow us to implement our good programmes in the Province?  Once that question is raised particularly if it relates to the question of peace and violence in the Province.  We as leaders in different political parties remain the first people to answer the question and remain the people who must as a matter of fact give the lead and lead the Province, to ensure that conditions prevail, so that our good policies and programmes are implemented.  That the lives of our people are changed and you are able to tackle the major problem that we all agree faces all of us commonly, the question of poverty and the backlogs created by the previous system in our country.

We have to address this question.  We have to know it remains a critical question, which as long as there is violence in the  Province we will never succeed to put behind our backs the problems that have confronted us all the time.  It is therefore a matter that does need to be emphasised and that is a matter we must not to forget at all material times.

Pursuant to this belief and indeed an important task before all of us, and also to implement ideas that have been generated in the past year and the interaction, particularly between the IFP and the ANC.  We are going to be having a meeting at a leadership level in a matter of days between the leaders of the IFP and the ANC to take further the matters relating to peace and peace initiatives in the Province.  We believe we have a possibility to give that leadership between the two organisations and therefore make our people in the Province feel that indeed they are in the new South Africa.

We are also happy that our efforts in the Province have certainly been recognised by the National Government, by confirming in the main budget that was discussed in Cape Town, a specific amount for the Province aimed at supporting our peace initiatives.  This particular fund is an important contribution and I believe that when the National gets to the level of including this particular amount in its budget, indicates that we are being supported in what we are doing.  We need to utilise this fund, and it gives me hope, for peace initiatives here, unlike at the time when the National Peace Accord Committee was dissolved.  As you would know this Legislature discussed the matter, and we felt in our Province we could not dissolve those structures.  This Parliament discussed and took decisions to establish the Committee here as well as to try to find funds for it.  The fact that the National has come back to support us is a step in the right direction which needs to be supported.  Therefore this means the National Government has recognised that here we still have work to do.  It gives me hope that when we call for more funds as we proceed, we will get something.

To me this is important.  We have argued that if we are to bring peace to ravaged and devastated communities, if agreements are signed and we are not in a position to do something about the destroyed properties of those people, who had their houses destroyed, the only houses that they had worked for, for many years and they have no other means to do so, peace would not be completed, if we did not address that question.

This fund enables the Province to address those questions.  Where there has been peace we should be able to come in as a Government to help people re-establish themselves.  It is an important step that I thought was important to be underlined, as we discuss this budget.

I would also want us to appreciate the steps taken by the National Government in the decision to give provinces a lump sum share of their own, so that provinces can sit and work out their own plans and priorities in terms of their own demands, which they know better because they are in the situation.

It also goes further to show how much the National Government is showing confidence, that Provincial Governments are in a position to decide about how their budgets should be operated.  I believe, given that confidence, we should therefore not misuse that possibility.  We should work out our priorities in a responsible manner.  We should be able to show that the powers as put in the Constitution, that we can utilise them appropriately on behalf of the people we govern in the Province.

I believe, that after all is said and done, this is an indication of correct understanding of the co-operative governance in our country.  I think by showing our good plans and how responsibly we can use our finances, we will certainly indicate to the National Government that they could even do more, because we are in a position to handle the matters, as they think we are in a position to do so.  As I said, I am convinced that the last three years must have shown, that in fact we are in a position to handle our own matters.

I therefore wish, Mr Speaker, to say that debating this budget at this point, being aware that there were difficulties, which in the process of handling it were ironed out.  We would wish certainly to support the budget.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon Minister Zuma. I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr MacKenzie to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, hon members.  I was somewhat disappointed and surprised to read in the press a distortion of the facts with regard to the Premier's Development Fund.  When I say disappointed, I am disappointed because the protagonists and the antagonists are obviously not talking to each other.

In this case, the press rightly reported what was fed to them. This accumulation of funds which had been left mouldering and was not serving its purpose in the various departments of this Province, was brought together by the Premier into a development fund.  This was referred to as a slush fund.

Now Mr Speaker, hon members, if you read in the Oxford English Dictionary of what a slush fund means, you will realise that this is verging on the defamatory.  It is a reserve fund for political bribery.  That is what the Oxford English Dictionary says.

Now since it came from an erudite pedagogue who is seated not very far from me, I am very surprised and I am doubly disappointed.

AN HON MEMBER:  Where is he?

AN HON MEMBER:  The pedagogue is gone.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  He will read it in Hansard.  Furthermore his ~"handlanger"~ whose voice I hear bleating in the background here, incidentally, saw fit on the front page of the Order Paper to praise the hon Premier under 9.1, that the House congratulates our Premier and Minister of Finance on the innovative and progressive ideas, on the enhancement of a public sector delivery [Oh gentlemen, what are we doing here]? 

I am further surprised that it so far has gone unchallenged.  I understand that in Cabinet with the full approval of the Premier's ANC colleagues in Cabinet, that his actions were sanctioned by them.  I am going to suggest that the hon member, the pedagogue, either prove that there has been political bribery or just quietly and certainly belt up.

I would like to move onto another subject, Mr Speaker, taxes.  At the moment our taxation in this country is inordinately high.  So much so that the 10% of people who pay tax in this population are under strain to the point that they are looking at alternative means of investing their assets.  We are at the same time saying that we have to attract overseas investment.  At the same time we are saying we have to create ...

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can the hon member give Mr Rajbansi a minute.  I think he has risen on a point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I require a ruling from you, the hon member Mr Wessel Nel stated the money is not yet spent, the bribery is still coming.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, is this a point of order?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can you give him a chance?  Let us hear whether it is a point of order or not.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I believe that such a statement is unparliamentary, although it was said in a whisper within my hearing.  I request that those words be withdrawn because they may have gone into the recording system.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can the hon member withdraw those words?

MR W U NEL:  I withdraw, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr MacKenzie, you can continue.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  ~Ngiyabonga~ ~jazbantshi~, to carry on, there is 10% of our population which is paying taxes.  They are being literally pushed out of this country and they are looking for investments elsewhere.  We are trying to attract investment here.  I do not believe we are doing it the right way.

The next question is.  Are we spending our taxes correctly?   Are we able to say that there is no overexpenditure?  Are we able to say that, for argument sake, ministerial allowances and expenses are normal.  Then we hear of National Ministers with 16 bodyguards?  ~Maye~ ~babo~, [My goodness] what is he frightened of?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M M MACKENZIE:  That is really excessive.  I was going to suggest that this Provincial House, send a clear message to National Parliament, that all the hopes and desires of the oppressed people, all the underprivileged people, who are expecting us to guide funds to alleviate their suffering, will not be met as long as the distribution at National level, of the money from our taxes, is not distributed in a way which can be called equable and sensible.

I want to move on to another issue, the ~Amakhosi~.  What I observe here is extremely sad.  Recently we had formed the House of Traditional Leaders.  What are its powers, Mr Speaker, hon members?  I do not see any powers that are given to them.  They are a House rather like a museum.  Are they designed now to slowly moulder into antiquity, when in actual fact they are doing an invaluable job which cannot be done by anybody else in the rural areas.  They have been there for an awful long time yet they are being relegated to museum status?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M M MACKENZIE:  In so doing you will find that the very people that they represent, will start resenting the fact that their traditional line of authority has been removed from them over the coming years.  I do not believe that this country is going to be served well at all unless, and I have said it before in this House, not once but several times, we listen to the people who voted us in.  Those are the people at the bottom of the pile who have come to know and respect the role that is played by ~Amakhosi~.  We do not listen to them.  Some of us do not and some of us do.  Those who do not will actually pay the price because when the voting does come around they will say, [The voters will say, 'No, we will not vote for them because they are the ones who took our government from us']. 

My next point is environment and its management in this Province.  No one can say that the budget allocation that we have been granted for environment is adequate.  Everybody can say, if they look at it closely, that it is miserable.  It is miserable because it is meant to conserve our beautiful game reserves, in order to attract tourists.  We are told again and again, and the hon Minister of Tourism will know what I am talking about, we are told again and again that the real earner of revenue in this Province is tourism.  How can you attract a tourist unless your game reserve, which is an entity which falls under environment, is adequately funded in order to do its job?  You cannot.  So in actual fact you are cutting the throat of the goose that is able to lay a golden egg even before it has started laying.

I would say that the role and the relevance of the environment is being bypassed here for several other issues which can be called current - the in thing or the taste of the month or the culture of the month - but when we come in the years that are now facing us and we find that our tourism drops off because our reserves are not attracting people, please know that we have been warned.

I move on to rural security.  Frequently when we talk of rural security people will say it is MacKenzie speaking because the farmers are being killed, the White farmer that is.  No, I am not talking about that at all.  I am talking about the people out there in the rural areas ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Well, he lives in a flat.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR M M MACKENZIE: [Help me and tell them to come to order, sir].

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  I am talking about the people out there whom have three head of cattle and four goats.  I am talking about the people out there whose language is not understood by JJ.  I am talking about the people out there who really know what ~"ukuhlupheka"~ means and they are being ripped off holus-bolus by organised crime.

Now there are various ideas that have been put together and in fact we had the top brass of SAPS, in on a joint meeting with the hon Cele and myself as the Chairperson.  The top brass were surprised that this new agriculture unit in KWANALU had put together statistics which showed that the SAPS were not doing their job in vast areas.  We hear even after that that livestock is being stolen in the middle of the night and it is over the border in Swaziland before sunup.  Why is that not stopped?  Is it that their budget is inadequate but then their budget is National?  I believe that if we do not look after rural security, that we are also heading for major, major trouble.

In this regard you will find that communication becomes a vital source of being able to combat our rural security. Telkom have come up with a very, very good idea which is called the Chatterbox system.  There is a distribution of a satellite linked phone service from each ~Inkosi's~ area outwards, which gives communication that was not there before. This means that if an ambulance is needed or there are gangsters around, that they are easily reported and hopefully caught.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  Land affairs.  Recently at NCOP, in Cape Town, we of the IFP, convinced the hon Minister Hanekom of our help and our co-operation in every possible form with regard to helping identify areas of land reform.  Since we live here and we know what we are doing and we know how to do it and normally you will find that National does not.  I reiterate that in this House.

Lastly, Agricultural Grants Allocation.  This was also mentioned at NCOP and deserves mention here.  This Province asked for R15 million for its 755 farmers.  It got R5 million.  Northern Cape with 55 farmers got R15 million.  There is something wrong.

Lastly, I would say, I hope and I pray that never do we fall into the category of the words that are given by a Mr Wheeler and these are they:

	That the tyrannies cannot tolerate widespread prosperity because poor people take orders so much better.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr MacKenzie.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Haygarth, to address the House for 11 minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, hon members.  I think the budget which we have before us today has a basic background of national level.  One must accept that the National Government had the courage to set a National budget with the principle theme being that it should be limited to a maximum 4% deficit.  That sort of attitude and the consequences which flow from it have an important effect obviously on the Province as well.

The Government had two choices to meet that feature.  They had the opportunity to increase taxation or secondly, to decrease expenditure.  Taxation at the level which we have today was obviously not a prospect, and they achieved their aim though in that respect, by the South African Revenue Services operating more effectively and efficiently and collecting the backlog and arrears to a certain extent.

To reach the objective, however, they had to make substantial reductions in expenditure.  I think it could be said that the expenditure suffered from the surgeon's scalpel and provinces had to bear an appropriate share.  The Minister of Finance of this Province would have known of that objective probably in about July 1996.

We then come to the Provincial budget.  The Fiscal and Financial Commission had supplied a phased programme of provincial adjustments and KwaZulu-Natal still seems to be suffering from an inability to have this phasing fast enough.  Our share of the overall budget is 19% by comparison with the 25% that we ought to be receiving.  This, is of course very difficult for this Province to face in the light of the high demands on it, arising from the backlogs, particularly in education and health and the rapid growth in the youth of this Province.  The population numbers have an important effect on the expenditure requirements that we have to meet.  So we have to ask the Minister, and I am sorry he is not here today, when does the National Government intend that KwaZulu-Natal should be getting its 25%.

Now having been advised of the Province's allocation, which I have said was indicated in July 1996, what steps did the Minister take to ensure, to inculcate in the departments the need for a proper overview of all of their expenditure and a proper prioritisation, because they were effectively faced with a real reduction in expenditure?

I do not believe that this was handled in a proper manner either by the Minister and his Department or the Ministers of the individual line departments.  I do not believe that there was a "what if" scenario imposed and looking at the expenditure and the direction that each department should go.  The philosophy of the departments appear to have been, we have a certain amount of personnel expenditure, which is fixed.  The only thing we could talk about cutting is the rump of the expenditure.

Now if you say that the Province was cut R5,00 in R100,00, which is 5%, but the departments are only going to cut - let us assume they have a rump of 20% - and they are going to lose R5,00 in R20,00, which is effectively in the rump, a reduction in expenditure of 25% and that is difficult to achieve on that sort of basis.

This approach has an alarming impact on those who receive allocation funds from the departments.  For example, there has been little transparency.  Neither the Portfolio Committee nor the recipients of transfers were advised timeously of the situation.  In fact there is one recipient, I understand, who received notice on 16 April 1997 that their allocation was being reduced from R2 065 000 down to a figure of R620 000 less.  That is a reduction of 38%.

How can you with that sort of notice, two weeks into the financial year, expect this body to be faced with raising, a figure of R620 000, which means they have to find for themselves an additional R57 000,00 per month?  That is a lot of money for an organisation to have to find from a difficult public at the present time who have their own financial problems.  Whether this case is deserving priority or not is another matter and that could be debated in another forum.

Clearly as outlined in the Finance Portfolio Committee report, a far better programme of consultation with stakeholders and greater transparency is required in respect of the 1998/99 financial year.

We then proceed to corporate governance, to which reference has been made.  In this vital issue, in this vital question, personnel costs, because of their tremendous impact that they have on Provincial budgets, need to receive more serious consideration.  Much has been made in recent times of the inability of the departments to reconcile their staff numbers.  In fact, I think, the Environmental branch have not been able for the last four months to give a figure nor any indication.  Without a firm and sound foundation any budget is suspect, particularly in view of the departments' philosophies of not tampering in any way with the figures.

For the financial year 98/99 serious concern has to be given to this aspect.  Because of further anticipated cuts from National, the norms and standards of departments have to be re-examined in accordance with available funds.  This is similar to what the universities are experiencing at the present time.  They are having to make substantial cuts and adopting some radical thinking.  One has to say in regard to education for example, when there was a difficult financial situation in the early 60s some of the people in Chatsworth, the education there had to be on the basis of the platoon system.  Schools being used mornings and afternoons because of the shortage of funds for capital purposes.

The second important issue is the monitoring of expenditure bearing in mind the "no roll over rule" which is now going to be applied.  It becomes more and more essential that the portfolio committees of the departments ensure that their spending of all funds available on a sensible basis is achieved.

The third issue I want to raise is the question of alternative sources of revenue.  While the Minister of Transport has been exploiting the sale of numberplates or the sale of numbers, mere petty cash in relation to needs, it was only after enquiries from the Committee that motor licence fees were to be increased from 1 July 1997 producing some 40 million.  It is clear that such revenue sources need to be adjusted annually, to ensure that the ravages of inflation on expenditure are minimised.

The Minister of Finance has indeed been prominent recently in innovative ideas on public and private partnership in the broadest possible sense.  Presently, one hears of the City of Durban and its International Convention Centre.  If one goes back to 1977 this Province met one-third of the cost of the Pavilion Exhibition Centre that still remains on the beach front.  That was the acorn that was planted which grew into an exhibition centre from 4 000 square metres to 14 000 square metres and today is now burgeoning into this tremendous asset for the city and for the Province and what that means in our economy.

Much thought has been given also to financing peace initiatives and the development and the Premier's Development Fund.  Although the Minister has been accused of having an IFP/ANC plot being hatched in regard to the expenditure of that fund, it is hoped that the Minister notes that the largest opposition party is making rapid inroads in various areas and that the potential investment that exists for that party to participate in the allocation of those funds is something that needs to be borne in mind.  This party has 11% of the votes and it feels ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G HAYGARTH:  At the present time 11% and we expect that 11% of the Premier's Fund and the Peace Fund will also be allocated with us as a party, to ensure that those members of our party who have had their houses burnt down, those members of our party who are desperately in need of development in their areas, will also be able to share in this thing and to provide an assistance to the Minister in making sure that the funds are in fact spent, because that is the major issue that is really involved.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR G HAYGARTH:  With those thoughts, Mr Speaker, thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Our next speaker is going to be the hon member Dr S Cwele to address the House for 12 minutes.

DR S C CWELE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This is the first time I am speaking in this august Chamber.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR S C CWELE:  Mr Speaker, as the ANC and as the representatives of the people for KwaZulu-Natal and as South Africans, we are approaching 1997 with confidence in dealing with the challenges it presents as the year of delivery and as the year of implementation of our democratic Constitution.

NCOP

One of the most outstanding features of the new Constitution was the abolition of the old Senate and the creation of the new second chamber of Parliament, the National Council of Provinces.  This is the instrument for co-operative governance bringing together the provinces on an equal basis, at a National Government sphere to discuss the matters of interest.

The NCOP offers us, as the representative of KwaZulu-Natal, the opportunity to work together, irrespective of the party affiliation, and fight to improve the conditions of living of the people on the ground.  It also offers the Provincial Executive to work together with the Legislature.  Without this internal co-operation we will be running a risk of creating another Senate.

We in KwaZulu-Natal have taken the NCOP with the seriousness it deserves.  We are one of the two provinces which have put up appropriate structures for the effective functioning and communication of NCOP activities.  We have, however, had some experiences.  One, where we have risen above party political interests and put the people of KwaZulu-Natal first, like in dealing with the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Land, we have succeeded in gaining the National support for the amendment of the Act in order to facilitate investment and development of the KwaZulu-Natal people who are living in this land.

However, where petty political opportunism was the driving force like in the Bill for the establishment of the National Council of Traditional Leaders, we have failed our traditional communities in KwaZulu-Natal.  Nevertheless, we owe it to the spirit of nation building which exists among other provinces that we have the Deputy Chairperson of that Council as the representative from KwaZulu-Natal.

This is not the only institution at a National level where the spirit of national unity exists.  The Premier of this Province was elected as the first Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces.  This is about co-operative Government.

The Minister of Home Affairs, who is also the leader of the minority party, the IFP, has on several occasions been appointed to the high office of acting presidency.  This is evidence of trust - we must credit it to the ANC.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR S C CWELE:  This has improved the confidence of investors and has sent positive signals to the ordinary people on the ground in KwaZulu-Natal.  This has also reinforced the peace effort pioneered by the KwaZulu-Natal Government of Provincial Unity.

The National Anti-crime Strategy which, by the way, has been allocated about R406 million this year, has also contributed and assisted the Government of Provincial Unity in bringing the levels of political violence in KwaZulu-Natal to almost nothing.

However, the absence of overt political violence has not been accompanied by free political activity in all areas.  We have the joint responsibility as parties to ensure that every party may without fear, organise and campaign in every area in KwaZulu-Natal including, Mr MacKenzie, the tribal areas and the farm areas.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  ~Yabonga~ ~Baba~.

DR S C CWELE:  This year, as the hon leader of the ANC, comrade Jacob Zuma, has mentioned that the Province of KwaZulu-Natal has been allocated R100 million for peace initiative purposes.  This is to reinforce our peace efforts and we need to start immediately with the reconstruction of those communities destroyed by the violence.  We know today that we have still got a lot of refugees not because there are acts of violence but because people cannot go back and build their homes.  They just do not have the resources.

We must divert the peace initiative money away from the offices and salaries, to visible peace and reconstruction projects on the ground.  Peace structures must also play an active role in promoting the culture of political tolerance and free political activity in this Province.

Secondly, coming back to the issue of delivery.  The ANC led Government of National Unity is still committed to the service delivery to our people.  This year we have declared as an action year where we have committed ourselves to remove all obstacles which are slowing down the service of the basic necessities to our people.

If you check for instance, in terms of health, we have not only provided the poor children with food at schools, we have not only provided the pregnant women and the children under six with free health activities, but as a Province through equitable allocation, we are now starting to have a fair share of the National budget so that we can improve the health conditions in KwaZulu-Natal, unlike the era of the National Party where this was one of those banana or Cinderella provinces.

On welfare, this year we have shown our commitment by allocating about R300 million for community based poverty relief programmes.  Specifically targeting the rural people and the women and we honestly hope that our Welfare Minister will have a fair share of the slice.

There has also been an increase in State pensions to give relief to our senior citizens from R430,00 per month to R470,00 per month.  This is the commitment by the ANC led Government to improve the conditions of life of our senior citizens and those citizens of ours who have disabilities.

There is also a move to eliminate corruption in our social security system, through centralisation of the information system and the introduction of a positive identification system.  We hope this will eliminate fraud in our State pensions, where not only the official who stole the money but even the recipients move from one province to another because the National Party left us with over six types of identification systems in this country.

We hope that these changes will not affect the continuous payment of the pensions to these needy old citizens.  We have witnessed that in KwaZulu-Natal, since Inkatha has taken over as the ruling party, more senior citizens have had their payments disrupted since 1994.

On the land redistribution Mr MacKenzie has been speaking about.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please!

DR S C CWELE:  On the land redistribution programme the National Government has boosted this programme to R300 million for this current year.  This is the only programme which will effectively benefit the rural masses.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two more minutes.

DR S C CWELE:  And in dealing with this question our Minister is co-operating with the relevant departments in this Province in the spirit of national and provincial unity.  Today we all know that we have supplied over a million people with clean running water.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR S C CWELE:  In closing, Mr Speaker, I want to assure our people on the benches across that as the ANC, when we take over in 1999 we will still be committed to lead this Province to proper development without patronage to give service delivery to all our citizens.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please. Thank you, Dr Cwele.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Aulsebrook who will address the House for 15 minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, hon members of the House.  The hon member Minister Zuma, outlined the progress of the Government of Provincial Unity over the past three years, highlighting some of the achievements.  Now, what I would like to do is dwell on the budget process over that period, that made it possible that we achieved what we have thus far.

Looking at the budget process in 1995, this Province was confronted with five separate administrations, and our main focus in that year was the amalgamation of the various administrations, and that we achieved.  The majority party in this House took the lead and we achieved it with tremendous success with the co-operation of all the other parties in the House.

Then the following year, the budget of 1996/97, with amalgamation virtually complete, we then set about ensuring efficiency in the administration.  Certainly, efficiency is predetermined by your budget, not only in how money is spent but how it is certainly best utilised.  We were determined to ensure that the taxpayer got value for his money.  This task we, certainly as a Legislature, undertook with vigour, certain departments thought we were being rather harsh on them at the time, and even some of our portfolio committees.  It was something we stuck to and we achieved our goal.  This was done under the leadership of the majority party in this House and again with the co-operation from other parties.

Then we came to the budget process in 1997/1998.  This year we have adopted a different process.  We introduced the Budget Council, we introduced zero based budgeting and also requested departments to prioritise their spending.  The emphasis being on delivery.

We had to face a situation where the budget in real terms was a reduced budget and it was no easy task.  There has been criticism from all quarters.  Departments feeling they are underfunded but once again we are sticking by our guns and we will ensure delivery in this coming year by way of this budget.

We also face the problem, as the hon Mr Haygarth has referred to, of underfunding.  We are only getting 19% of the budget whereas 25% would be a far more equitable share.  This we will do under the leadership of the majority party in this House and we hope with the support of all the other parties.

In this budget process we constantly find certain people highlighting negative perspectives, and very often misleading the public out there.  Certainly we will not be deterred by such negative remarks, comments, statements.  It is our goal, our aim to achieve good clean and efficient Government and petty politics we will not entertain in our attempts to achieve that.

AN HON MEMBER:  It means conserving.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Right, I will do.  Speaking of which, I was astounded to read in the paper on Friday, comments and statements from a 2% party in this House.  I think I am being generous in saying 2%.  A party that participated in this whole process and throughout that process they made their amendments, played a role, we took note of what they had to say and when it came to drawing up the report.  The report process, they contributed to that and then on Friday put out a statement saying they are going to oppose this budget.

MR0 W U NEL:  Correct, it is our prerogative.  

MR R M BURROWS:  Did you oppose the National budget, John?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Our prerogative, but we said so right from the word go, we did not come at the end of the process and then say it.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  All right.  No, look we want to talk about cheap politicking and I am afraid that that is about all this amounts to at this stage.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Well, if it is all going to be cheap then I would not like to be part of it.  Right.  Sorry, gentlemen, I have lost my place here.  [LAUGHTER]  Let us look at the issues, the issues around which the DP certainly brought up in their statement, it was the issue of the R158 million Discretionary Fund.  This fund was discussed.  In fact you will find it in your White Book and it is clearly spelt out exactly how it is to be used.  We all know how it is to be accessed.

MR R M BURROWS:  Have you asked the Minister of Education why he is not repairing schools?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Right.  Now just let us have a look.  Let us read from the White Book and see here.  It says:

	Provincial special projects.  Addressing the following special projects.  Personnel audit, efficiency in Government, culture of learning, classroom rehabilitation, job creation, rehabilitation of community access roads.

Now quite honestly those issues I do not know if any party in this House would have objection to the money being spent on any of those projects. The DP on their list were suggesting that money be spent on people already enjoying first world development as opposed to people in need of development.

MR R M BURROWS:  Have a look at the list.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  I have read that list, the hon Mr Burrows, and quite honestly it is quite clear as to where your party intended to go.

AN HON MEMBER:  Where?  The Berea?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Yes.  [LAUGHTER]  Right.  Now talking about line functions.  Mr Burrows and Mr Nel are very much aware that that fund, once a department has submitted business plans that money will be allocated to that line department and spent by that line department.

MR W U NEL:  How long is that going to take?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  The whole process is intended to ensure that the money is spent in this financial year.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can I give the hon member Mr Rajbansi a chance to say something?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, you notice that I am not interjecting this member as usual.  I appeal to you that he be given a chance undisturbed.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am waiting for something about casinos.  [LAUGHTER]

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Right.  We will give casinos a miss today, Mr Speaker.  Now quite honestly it was some months ago that business actually approached Government and suggested that the Government should have a Discretionary Fund.  They could not believe that there was no Discretionary Fund to attend to issues, important issues that arise within a budget year.  Quite honestly that originally came about when we needed to do a preliminary study for the airport, and business could not believe that the Premier did not have any funds accessible for an important issue of that nature.  So quite honestly it is not something that was merely sucked out of the air that we decided that this would be the most prudent way of allocating those funds.

Now furthermore, that fund of R158 million is also deliberately confused with the monies that were set aside for the construction of buildings in ~Ulundi~.  The people, the general public, in most articles this issue has never ever been separated and it is almost deliberate.

Now getting on to the buildings in ~Ulundi~.  It was this House in its first year of existence that objected to sharing the parliamentary buildings in ~Ulundi~ with the administrative staff and this House ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Did the House ever take such a resolution?  No.

AN HON MEMBER:  This House refuses to sit with the Executive.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  This House raised the objection, it was raised in this House and the parties that led that objection are the ones that are making the most noise on that side of the House, including the Democratic Party.  They were the ones that insisted that there should be a separation of powers.

MR R M BURROWS:  Quite correct.  And the Constitution lays it down.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Right.  So we then had to make a decision now to move those people out there.  There is no other office accommodation in ~Ulundi~ ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  On a point of order, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Since the hon Mr John Aulsebrook is the number one spokesman on finance, I appeal that he be given a say undisturbed.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi, but the hon member has got two more minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Right, thank you.  Having brought to the House the issue of the administration using the precincts of Parliament, the Executive then set about to attend to that problem.  That problem was brought to this House by way of committee to have the office block erected in ~Ulundi~.  That is on our budget for this year.  In fact the Finance Committee have in its report approved the spending of money on the office accommodation in ~Ulundi~.

MR R M BURROWS:  How much?  Have you told the boss that it is cut back from 70 to 40 million?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  That is the recommendation.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  No, when I look at statements coming from the DP ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Carry on, John, they just whinge.

MR R M BURROWS:  Is this the fellow member of the budget council?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Now the statements made by the DP make those of us who believe in equal opportunity in South Africa shudder.  Surely the founding fathers of democracy would turn in their graves when such statements are made in the name of democracy.

AN HON MEMBER:  Are you speaking of conviction?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Yes, I certainly am and I hope you are taking note too.  Now moving on to the R100 million Peace Fund.  Here I have another major problem with the DP's statement.  Quite honestly in their statement they claim that the Premier and hon Minister Zuma will be able to spend this money in IFP and ANC areas, right.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Quite honestly it was not the IFP or ANC that chose for their members to be victims of violence.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Ngidi who will address the House for nine minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Again we deal with the budget for our Province.  As is common, this House must examine how we have discharged the mandate entrusted to us by the electorate.  We have to justify the confidence that has been placed in us.  Budgeting is the fundamental of governance.  It is important to ensure that expenditures from that budget are towards achieving the good for our people.

We have been in Government for two and a half years now.  We have worked out programmes and put plans in place to carry out our mandate.  In short, while in the initial periods of our governance people relied on us on the basis of blind faith, they now have concrete matters on which to judge us.  Our failures and successes are concrete and incontrovertible evidence of whether we can be called a good Government or not.

In the past year, particularly under the leadership of Dr Mdlalose this Government undertook to ensure that in our Province we exercised good governance.  There was a lot of fanfare and aplomb when we embarked on this campaign.  We heard radio adverts where the Premier vouched to fight corruption at whatever level.

However, good governance is not only about declarations of intent no matter how solemn they may be.  It is not about highfalutin orations which draw standing ovations, it is about concrete programmes where the Government is seen in action beginning to tackle all those factors that militate against good governance.  It is important at this stage to sound a caveat that our Province must not be counted among those African governments that have been found wanting on good governance.

We therefore have to ensure that we not only preach good governance but are seen to be practising it.  It is therefore disconcerting that after almost a year since the National Party vacated their ministerial post, the Premier has turned a blind eye to allocating the ANC that ministerial position due to it in terms of the Constitution.

What the Premier has done has been to overload with IFP Ministers in order to avoid allocating the ANC its due position.  Not only does this undermine the Constitution, but it promotes inefficiency.  Does this correspond with the principle of good governance?

The African governmental experience is replete with corrupt dictators, who have completely ignored traditional principles of good governance, and promoted narrow self-interests at times with harmful results for their parties.  Zaire, Kenya, Uganda under Idi Amin and Zimbabwe are a few examples.

The decision to build administration offices and a seat for the House of Traditional Leaders at ~Ulundi~ is worrisome.  It is a decision taken not by this Government, but by one political leader on the basis of narrow party political interests.

We see a situation where decision making is taken away from this Legislature.  We see bully tactics being employed by unscrupulous politicians to have our budget fund a political campaign of one political party.  What is worse, there is not even a whimper of protest from our Premier.

Emandleni Youth Camp is still a sore point in our budget.  As far as this side of the House is concerned, the running of this camp is shrouded in secrecy, and the little that is exposed leaves you worried.  It is not clear how this camp serves KwaZulu-Natal.  Who runs it?  What is its curriculum?  How does this camp differ from other institutions of its kind like the Owen Sithole Institution for example?

The history of this camp is not a good one.  It has over the years been associated with the politics of one party.  It has come to be generally regarded as an IFP indoctrination centre.  It has also been used by the IFP Youth Brigade as a centre for marshall arts training.  Perhaps these were the predecessors to the SPUs.  Yet this Province pays over R5 million for it and this amount is an increase on last year's amount.

Good governance demands that Government be able to give a clear account of the funds it uses.  There must never be funds about which there are suspicions, that are earmarked for narrow political interests.

Secondly, when funds are set out to be spent there must be a clear programme based on good economic judgment.  In this instance the Provincial Special Funds are a cause for concern.  What is more problematic is that there is no justification for these funds.  They are not part of economic development.  The reason that the Premier has been approached by people crying out for development is not good enough.  Every Minister in this Government faces that cry.  Why only empower himself, particularly when the Premier does this at the expense of other Ministers?

Can this be taken as a vote of no-confidence on some of the Ministers that have been affected by this, particularly the Minister of Education and of Transport?

Again we must be seen to be practising good governance.  At the moment what we see does not correspond with our understanding of that principle.  Good governance demands political bravery from us.  It demands that we oppose any move to undermine it, even if it comes from our political parties.  Good governance demands that this Province be governed from this Province and by its elected representatives.  Decisions must take into account economic development plans of this Province.  We cannot have a situation where decisions that affect our budget are taken outside this Legislature.

Peace is still the most important objective that this Province should work for.  It is not a matter of choice that we work for peace, but it is an historical necessity.  This country, because of the ~apartheid~ regime, has been plunged in violence.  There are generations in this country who know nothing but violence.  Families have been traumatised.  We sit with generations of our people, particularly the young, who cannot enter into profitable economic activity because of violence.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  For this reason, this is for us a national duty.

Mr Speaker, I would like to conclude on an optimistic note.  The African National Congress is hopeful that we will have peace in our region.  With peace we are sure that this Province will occupy its deserved position of being the bread basket of this country.  We are sure that we will see the unification of the people of this Province in one purpose of developing this Province to be the successful Province that it should be.

While one has been mildly critical of the Government with regard to the principle of good governance, I must say that we have not disastrously gone astray from that path.  KwaZulu-Natal is at this moment poised to take the lead countrywide in this regard.  We have the qualities that can make us a Government exemplary in an unprecedented manner, sooner rather than later we will achieve that objective.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.  I wish to call upon the hon member Mr Gwala to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):   Mr Speaker and the hon House.  There are a few things which I would like to comment on regarding economic growth and expansion versus the ongoing political violence in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  I will further deliberate on the issue surrounding the Zulu Monarch and the critics of the Zulu Kingdom.

Economic expansion involving investment of billions of Rands in KwaZulu-Natal, as spelt out by the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, the hon Mr Jacob Zuma, gives hope that the high rate of unemployment in this country will be reduced.  

The economic initiative by the KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet need to be supported by all citizens of South Africa because what is good for KwaZulu-Natal is good for South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  It is imperative that parliamentarians must encourage South Africans to fight against crime, criminal violence, taxi violence, HIV and Aids problems.  Also to help the National Government with its initiative to prevent illegal aliens, as they are a threat to economic development, employment and also to safety and security for our nation.

If we are genuine about peace and stability in this Province, the IFP and the ANC must begin to talk about peace, real peace.  There is a need for a firm commitment from the top hierarchy of both the IFP and the ANC so that their constituencies would be in a position of choosing a right direction towards peace.

It is a matter of fact that there are barriers in the way of reconciliation.  The IFP's view is first things first, it is the only solution that will lead our country towards reconciliation and permanent stability.

There are many issues which need to be discussed frankly by the ANC and IFP, so as for them to bury the hatchet before a foundation is laid, that will remain in our hearts and minds as a monument forever.

The foundation that I am talking about is the foundation of peace which is similar to that of the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ who spoke nearly 2 000 years ago.  Jesus Christ said:

	Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock and the rain descended, the floods came and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.  But everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand and the rain descended, the flood came and the winds blew and beat on that house and it fell.  And great was its fall.

Matthew 7:24 to 27. (The New King James Version)

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  The IFP has already opted to be like a wise man whose foundation for his house was laid on the rock.  The IFP is fully committed to peace initiatives and to participate in the peace process.  But, it cannot allow itself to be reduced to a political dwarf by the ANC under the banner of peace and reconciliation.  I will deliberate more on this subject in the near future when we deal directly with the violence.

I wish also to move on to the issue surrounding His Majesty the King and the critics of the Kingdom of KwaZulu.  Every time when there is a budget debate in this Legislative Assembly, the issue of the King as an extravagant person emerges.  When the King's budget is tabled, you will hear something like a choir of frogs, croaking in the shallow ponds, for no other reasons than to degrade and humiliate our King.

This practice goes hand in hand with those who criticise our cultural activities such as Mr Nadasen and Mr Jay Jugwanth who wrote to the editor of the Natal Witness of 1 March 1997 under the headings, "Divine right does not apply to Zulu King", and, "The needs of education not priority in KwaZulu-Natal" respectively.

I wish to respond to both, Mr P C Nadasen and Jay Jugwanth and to Mr Velaphi Majola whose comment appeared in the Sowetan's "To the Point" column on 28 February 1997.

The same message must be conveyed to the misguided members of this Legislature who do not take our King seriously.  One day I will mention them one by one.

We are a multi-cultural plural society and I think it is extremely insensitive and even provocative for a member of another cultural group, to express the kind of sentiment that Mr P C Nadasen has written in his letter about the Zulu King or the so-called Divine Right of Kings.

The Zulu people just as people of the Kingdom of Lesotho and the people of the Kingdom of Swaziland regard KwaZulu-Natal as King Shaka's country, and as a kingdom whose kingpin is the King himself.  Just as the people in the United Kingdom are subjects of the Queen.

There are many others who may not regard Queen Elizabeth II as their Queen, but living as they do in her Kingdom, they still owe allegiance to the Queen.  We do not expect more than that from people of other cultural groups.  We know that the Zulu King is essentially King of the Zulu nation, but what is normally the status of other people who settle in his kingdom.  Surely it cannot be different from people of other cultural groups who live in other kingdoms who then owe allegiance to those particular Monarchs.

Let us take for instance a democratic country like the Netherlands.  The constitutional Monarchy is there as a guardian of the Constitution and the rule of law.  The Queen is the highest public authority in the Netherlands and invulnerable for criticism, but when it comes to KwaZulu-Natal the Zulu King, because he is a Bantu King is vulnerable to criticism.  "Nokungenaludosi nje Kuyantinyela.  Somlomo".  

It is the duty of the King's subjects to build his residences and to plough his lands.  This is a traditional duty which every Zulu knows about.  We are not surprised if Mr Nadasen and other political comics in this House are unaware of it because he, Mr Nadasen, comes from another cultural milieu.

I have the same message for Mr Jugwanth, that it is insensitive and reckless for him to write of our King as a "fat cat".

We would hesitate to pontificate about anything that is the cultural right of other race groups.  It would just be insensitive for us if we did such a thing.  Think before you leap, Mr Jugwanth.  I do not know whether he is in this House or there are people who represent him in this House.  Those who have succeeded in life are respected by all of us for having established themselves as wealthy South Africans.

There are cases where some of the real "fat cats" have amassed wealth at the expense of the poorest of the poor who in KwaZulu-Natal are mostly Zulu people, by exploiting them in all sorts of ways.

I think during this time of reconciliation and transformation, people such as Mr P C Nadasen and Mr Jay Jugwanth, including certain politicians in this House, better be careful not to open a can of worms which exercise can only result in unnecessary conflict.

The issue of the money, almost spent on maintenance of the residences of the King of the Zulu nation, should be sorted out by the Zulu nation on the basis of whether they still cherish the idea of having a Monarch.  Only when that is decided can Mr Majola and other politicians' complaints stand or fall away.

All nations in the world that have Kings maintain them and pay the expenses of their upkeep.  The question of whether expenses are reasonable or extravagant should be sorted out by the KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet here.

I do not support extravagance as such, and none of us would support extravagance in any form or shape if and when it exists, but that is an entirely different matter which has nothing to do with those who declare that the King of the Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal is not their King.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Gwala.  Hon members, before we break for lunch, because we were supposed to have taken a break at half past twelve and come back at 2 o'clock.  Before we break I just have a small announcement to make.  In terms of Rule 22 I wish to announce a temporary panel of chairpersons of committees.  That has been agreed upon by the Whips.  They are Inkosi B N Mdletshe, Mr J D Mkhwanazi, Mr G Haygarth and Mr M F Dlamini.  That is going to be a temporary panel of chairpersons, who will assist with the proceedings, when the House goes into the Committee stage.  I wish that we break now for lunch and come back at 2 o'clock if we can.  Thank you very much.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:39
	RESUMED AT 14:00

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Next on the list of speakers is the hon member Mr Volker to address the House for 11 minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, allow me first of all, to express surprise that we have a scheduled debate on the main budget of the Province and the Minister of Finance is absent.  Whatever the reason for his absence it is contrary to normal parliamentary procedure for the Minister of Finance to be absent during the main budget debate.  I am not speaking about the separate budget votes, but the main provincial budget debate, it is totally abnormal for the Minister of Finance to be absent.

Let me deal with the main topic of my discussion.  Last week it was three years ago that a fully and inclusively representative Government was elected to the respective Legislatures at National and Provincial levels in South Africa.

The political climate has calmed down somewhat, but we are still very much in a transitional stage.  Political violence has decreased considerably, but criminal violence has become a matter of major concern to the man-in-the street across the country as well as to political leaders of all parties.  I do not intend to elaborate on that subject in this debate, because one of my colleagues will be dealing with that issue.  It is my intention to speak on the topic of GOOD GOVERNANCE and TOWARDS A WINNING KWAZULU-NATAL.

In the 1994 election KwaZulu-Natal was the only Province in which representatives from seven parties were elected in such proportions that co-operative Government became a prerequisite to make a process towards good governance a practical reality.

The IFP, with 41 out of 81 members did not have an effective ...

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  On a point of order.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, may I request that you draw the hon member's attention to the Rule which says that members shall refrain from reading their speeches.

MR V A VOLKER:  I would also appreciate it if you could tell that pipsqueak to sit down.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, that is unparliamentary.  I request that you ask the hon member to withdraw.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Will the hon member withdraw the comment?

MR V A VOLKER:  Yes, I will withdraw but he must sit down.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the ANC had 26 representatives ...

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  On a point of order.

MR J H JEFFERY:  The reference was of the pipsqueak.  Can he withdraw that as well please, Mr Speaker?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I think that is what he has withdrawn.

MR V A VOLKER:  If the hon member feels slighted I will do so.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon member behaves like a pipsqueak.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I request that that comment by the hon Mr Rajbansi please be withdrawn if it has reference to a member of my party, hon Mr Jeffery.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, if I said he is a pipsqueak it is unparliamentary.  I said he behaved like a pipsqueak.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Time is going.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I claim injury time.  Mr Speaker, to a considerable extent there is a delicate political balance in the KZN Provincial Parliament, that must be seen as a foundation stone on which this Province can build its future as a WINNING PROVINCE.  

Some of the provinces, especially those that have overwhelming majorities, might be able to pass legislation easier, but their examination of the content of legislation, prior to its introduction, is invariably less thorough.

There is no province, nor the National public service for that matter, that is entirely free from the latter day scourge of corruption, theft and mismanagement.  The first step towards eliminating that and ensuring "GOOD GOVERNANCE" lies in identifying the problems.  The next step is to expose those who are responsible therefore and to do it in a transparent way.  What will automatically follow is a public response that will indicate a broadbased revulsion in private people and public officials' involvement in theft of taxpayers' money, to the extent that urgently needed essential services, such as school facilities; feeding schemes for hungry children; housing; health services and roads in rural areas are all inadequately funded.

The total public wants a crime and corruption free society, and especially a corruption free civil service.  

Public pressure is probably the most effective way of obtaining a Government response and a commitment towards effective urgent improvements, so as to reduce and eventually to eliminate mismanagement and corruption in the public service.

The Auditor-General's reports have drawn attention to serious cases of theft, mismanagement and corruption in this Province and they have received prominent publicity, not only in the media of this Province, but also in the national media.  This has caused considerable embarrassment to this Province and to none less so than to senior officials in the administration and to the political leaders of government.

Because of the aforementioned delicate balance in the political composition of the KZN Parliament - to which I have referred as a possible foundation stone on which a future towards a better and more efficient administration can be developed - our Public Accounts Committee has not sought to hide deficiencies from the public view and from public criticism.  By hiding it from transparent public scrutiny, the process and internal dynamics of affecting corrections and improvements is delayed, or even obscured to the extent that no improvements are brought about.

Ineffectiveness and poor quality administration is likely to continue unhindered and the day of reckoning will surely come as night follows day.

This Province will have had an opportunity to bring about the essential adjustments and to eliminate the weaknesses, the corruption, theft and mismanagement.  If not in the short term, then at least in the medium term.  The Government of this Province will have been able to bring about GOOD GOVERNMENT and to ensure effective use of those funds that are made available to our treasury.  

BUT THEN IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT THERE MUST BE SPEEDY AND A RESPONSIBLE RESPONSE TO A TRANSPARENT EXPOSURE OF DEFICIENCIES.

On 20 January 1997 Dr Frank Mdlalose, former Premier of this Province, arranged a high profile launching of a provincial anti-corruption and anti-crime campaign.  We fully supported the positive public commitment by the whole Provincial Cabinet.

Mr Speaker, having stated that, I would be failing in my duty if I did not draw attention to certain deficiencies that persist and that require to be addressed and rectified urgently. 

There appears to be a certain ham-handedness in dealing with certain issues.

During the course of our Committee's work last year and based on reports by the Auditor-General it became evident that there were serious inadequacies in the administrative overview of the Provincial staff structures in various departments.  The media, whilst reporting on speculation, sometimes published statistics which were exaggerated and which created incorrect impressions.  References were made to "GHOST STAFF" etcetera.

The Public Accounts Committee arranged that an urgent complete personnel audit should be undertaken by each department, in which every staff member should be personally identified and certified by their departmental superior as being on the official staff structure of the department and of being correctly employed.  Secondly, the records should be fully co-ordinated with the records of the Persal computer records.  Their correct ID numbers should form an integral part of the audit.

The Cabinet underscored our decision by taking a decision that all provincial staff would be required to officially open a personal banking account with a financial institution so that all salary payments could be made directly into such auditable banking accounts.

This corroboration of personnel information was to be completed by the end of February 1997.  Departments were given more than three months to do the work.

Subsequently a final date was further extended till the end of March.

In terms of a report by the Director General, which he verbally confirmed to the Public Accounts Committee on 29 April 1997, last week, which is four weeks after the final extended date, only three departments out of 12 had done a 100% head count and Persal check, namely the Departments of Finance, Local Government and Housing and the Department of Transport.  These three departments represent less than 12% of the indicated provincial staff structure.

The Department of Education with nearly 83 000 staff, which is 47% of the total provincial staff, had only completed 21% Persal co-ordination.  In their checking procedures they identified 13 538, 16%, as having irregular ID numbers.  

The Department of Health, with an estimated staff complement of 56 000, which is more than 31% of the total staff, reported a 6% completed Head count and Persal record co-ordination.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR V A VOLKER:  The Department of Environmental Affairs with an estimated staff structure of only 1 644 reported that they had done nil % head count, with only 51% Persal co-ordination.  

The Department of Public Works, with an indicated staff of 5 978 estimated that 2 400, which is 40% of their total staff, had irregular ID numbers.

Mr Speaker, it is the task of the Departmental Secretaries to ensure that the required information is obtained.  It is the task of the Director General, as chief accounting officer of the Province, to see to it that the senior heads of departments give attention to their respective duties and that they ensure that the work is done timeously and efficiently.

Mr Speaker, unfortunately I have another paragraph but I will leave that for another day.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  The next speaker will be the hon member Mr Nel who will address the House for 12 minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, one would have to be blind not to see that all is not well in our country and our Province.  But nevertheless, whilst we look at all these problems, we must always be conscious of the fact that it is infinitely better than the old dispensation which we have come from.  It is infinitely better than the system which was unfair to the vast majority of people and did not give them adequate opportunities or empowerment.  That was a certain time bomb and the question was just when it was going to explode and whether it would take us all with it.

But to our credit we emerged through the transition and now we have got the fundamentals in place.  We are all proud South Africans.  We have a Constitution that recognises the basic human rights of everybody, and protects us as individuals and we can, if we get our act together, actually still save this situation, but that will require that we prioritise correctly, that we deliver, that Government delivers to the people and that Government harnesses public opinion and the co-operation of talented people who are ready and willing to help but at the moment are getting despondent.

We would all have to put our shoulders to the wheel to restore law and order and to actually move towards a democracy that is mature.  One, which like Britain, could experience a political revolution as we saw now with the Labour Party thoroughly trouncing the Tories, and the worst incident of violence was the fact that somebody threw an egg at ex-Prime Minister John Major's car.  Now that is the kind of democracy that we should be striving for.  One where one can criticise and not be thought unpatriotic for it.

I noted with interest this morning, there was in the Witness an article by somebody who actually says we must remember it is not our right to criticise, it is actually our duty to criticise, because if we do not then there will be no transparent debate and we will never get to the real issues and solve the problems of this country.

That brings me now to the budget, which is the fuel on which all of this reconstruction, reprioritisation and empowerment must run.  I must only echo the sentiments of the hon member Mr Volker that we find it quite inexplicable that our Premier and Minister of Finance is not present here today in this vital process in our Provincial Government.

The hon member Mr MacKenzie referred to us earlier in the debate, to the Democratic Party, and he insinuated that we suffer from a kind of schizophrenia, because in a speech in ~Ulundi~ after the budget speech, I complimented the hon Premier on his speech and certain of his initiatives.

Now it is, as I have said, our right and our duty to criticise where criticism is due, but it is also our duty to be constructive and to support initiatives that we think are worthy of praise and it is for that reason that we applauded the Premier's speech and the exciting possibilities which he sketched in it.

The Premier said that we have a partnership between Government, business and labour and his government they will strive to perfect that.  He talked about privatisation models for greater efficiency, the DBFO system and also managed contracts where non-core business would be contracted out.  He also referred to the fact that he would establish an administrative review mechanism to ensure that every cent and every opportunity in this Province were used to maximum effect.

Now, in response to those things, we as a responsible party can do nothing but to praise and to welcome, and that is exactly what we did.  But then when criticism is due, as in the case unfortunately of this budget, we will also not be silent.

We note, however, with some interest that it seems to me now that the IFP has supported the suspension of the R30 million intended for the debating chamber for the House of Traditional Leaders, because that is what the report to this Parliament says.  We are very happy to hear that, not because we do not wish the House of Traditional Leaders to have a debating chamber, but simply that there are facilities that could be rationalised and used to better affect so that they could share with us and we would not have to spend a cent.  We are very happy to see that the IFP now supports that view.  That at least is some progress.

But it is with some sadness that I now come to the unfortunate reality of what has now become everyday in South Africa.  That is crime and violence.  Unless we succeed against this crime wave that besets us then we budget in vain and we debate in vain in this insulated chamber, where we are somewhat removed from the trauma being experienced outside by the 40 million unfortunate South Africans, old and young, rich and poor.  There are no exceptions.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, it is very sad indeed when I see that we are no longer people, we no longer have names, there is no longer any dignity.  A person's life is no longer respected.  We are all just statistics now.  We are targets of the guns of the rogues.

As we are sitting here today, we know that when this debate comes round again next year there will possibly be some of us that will not be here.  We are not only talking of those outside.  There may even be somebody in this house who will not be returning.  Perhaps one of your family or relatives who will not be alive.  We cannot continue in this fashion.  We cannot.  This must end now.  T/E
     

Mr Speaker, on Friday the National President of the South African Long Distance Taxi Association was shot dead.  A key personality who should be responsible for bringing peace to that major industry and to our country at the same time.  Similarly Dr Ronnie Bethlehem was shot dead in a car hijacking.

Now there hardly a businessman in this country who has not listened to him at seminars and at lectures, who has not been advised by him directly or indirectly.  He often lectured internationally where he was well-known and respected.  It is not somebody whom nobody knows.  But worse, this man has also often cautioned against crime and violence and said that it posed a threat to business confidence, job creation and the economy as a whole.  Now he is dead.  Dead, the victim of a hijacker's bullet.  What do you think do the overseas investors think of this?  This is the man they listened to.  This is the man who cautioned against crime and now he is dead.  We simply have to do something about this.  It is not an isolated incident, we all know that.

Just to illustrate graphically the result.  There was a report in the business section of the Daily News of Wednesday, April, 16.  "Crime forces Sanlam to halt new investments".  And then it goes on to say that:

	Sanlam Properties, the country's largest commercial property owners are going to halt new investments in any downtown area until matters improve.

Now if that happens, it has serious consequences.  This is the dynamo of investment, they are no longer going to invest.  That is the message they send out and it is also a practical reality and it has major implications for people who want jobs and for economic growth in this country.  We cannot continue like this.  We read in our local papers that people who operated a top restaurant in Hilton are also leaving.  They sold up after being beaten up and locked up in a safe, and so it carries on.

Hilton community policing forum is also at the crossroads.  They have had enough, because for years they have asked for assistance and nothing is forthcoming.  They simply get told that training cannot be given because there are no funds and there is no capacity to do it.  So reservists cannot be trained, they cannot be harnessed and when they tried to introduce a data gathering system, this was rejected by a lot of the members of the force. The station commander said that he had no means of duplicating forms because the machine was out of order, radio control was broken.  He also, when asked why he had not instituted workload forms, replied that he had, but members refused to fill out the forms and it was difficult to discipline the members.

Now this state of affairs pertains to Hilton which people say is one of the better, and indeed it is true, one of the better equipped police stations.  That is why the Democratic Party came with what we believe are practical suggestions to at least make some difference to this budget.

So we have looked at systems where we reprioritise government spending.  We have experienced the RDP and the National Government finally gave up on it.  You actually come to the conclusion at the end of the day, that the money should be passed straight to the line function so that it can be spent in time.

I ask you, it is now a month and a half into the next budget cycle and still we have no priorities, no criteria, no system by which all this money in what I called the slush fund will be accessed.  Now, even if such criteria are set in place in the next month or two, then I ask you when are the proposals going to come in, when is the money going to be spent.  The only conclusion I can draw is that it will go the same way as the Child Feeding Scheme and the old RDP, that the money will be unspent unless, right at the end in a frenzy, we simply try and get rid of it in a panic and then we will not get value for that money.

So there is no way in the world that we in good conscience could support a budget where there is some R260 million in slush funds, so to speak, and a further R70 million, of which R30 million thankfully now has been suspended, for buildings in ~Ulundi~ which are not necessary while there are 80 000 square metres of office space in Durban, countless thousands in this town and even in the Financial Mail of 25 April, an advert for "Fair Breeze" office park at ~Ulundi~ where you can rent space which will become available by November of this year.

Now why are we going ahead with building projects for the Government?  Surely we have got other priorities which deserve that money and we need to look at that.  I will not reiterate all the recommendations we made.  They have been widely referred to. Save to say that I think the items we identified are crucial to development in this Province and that is where the money should be subverted to right now.  We should not wait for some RDP project which may or may not eventuate.  We cannot allow money like R100 million to be left in a Peace Fund to be allocated, some for this political party, some for that political party and blow me down even the National Party now gets up and says they would like to have 11% of that money.  So now we are going to spread it proportionately as a party political fund!

That is precisely the problem with that fund.  It is not supposed to be a party political Christmas stocking, as it now appears to be, and we will oppose that tooth and nail.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR W U NEL:  Sir, I come finally to the peace initiative.  I must say that for a long time I was involved in the previous Peace Committee.  In that Peace Committee, every time that it got really rough, then the IFP and the ANC would call for an adjournment in order to have a bilateral.  Now peace cannot come to this Province in that fashion.  Unless we have a social compact which is all inclusive it will not work, because as soon as the ANC and IFP have trouble again with their peace initiative then there is no outside witness to say who is breaking the agreement, then it is simply accusation one of the other, and that still continues today and it must stop.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR W U NEL:  I thank you very much, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Dumisani Makhaye to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, I have been ordered by my political leaders, the Whips, to speak on what is generally known as a vote of no-confidence debate.  I am happy to talk about "The Media and Counter-revolution in South Africa."

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Not very far from me Mr I C Meer, a trained journalist, was not allowed to practice journalism in this country for 38 years.  I am also happy that over the weekend we had what is known as the Day of Freedom of the Press.  As I have said, I intend to speak on the theme, "The Media and Counter-Revolution in South Africa".  From the very beginning I want to categorically tell this House that I am one of the champions of the freedom of the press.  

Let me also from the very beginning, record that there has always been in South Africa two broad categories of the media.  The one that championed the interests of the oppressed and exploited masses, such as the Guardian, New Age, The Call, ~Inkululeko~, African Communist, ~Umsebenzi~, ~Sechaba~, ~Mayibuye~ and The World.  This section of the media was brutally suppressed and banned.

On the other hand, there was that media which underpinned the system of ~apartheid~, colonialism and fascism in this country.  This section of the media has never forgiven the black people and the democratic forces for having defeated ~apartheid~ colonialism.  There is absolutely no difference in substance between the English and the Afrikaans press.  Their common denominator was that Africans would never be equal to the white colonial masters.  They were not the victims of ~apartheid~ as they would want to claim today.  Indeed they were benefactors.

I want to deal with the concept of freedom of the press and say it has never been abstract.  From its very inception it especially referred to that media that championed the interests of the oppressed, progressive, the new, that which was still struggling to be born.  In short, the media that was struggling for greater freedoms.

In never referred to oppressive and privileged groupings.  During the revolutionary transition from feudalism to capitalism it championed the interests of the new, then progressive capitalism.  Similarly, in present South Africa it should mean that media that fights for the interests of the new democracy, nation building and non-racialism and not that which still wants to reverse the clock of history.  It should mean that media which wants to comprehensively address the all-round historical injustice against the economic minority.  By the way it is the black people who are the economic minority, not the other way.

Those who were ready to pay the supreme sacrifice in order to defeat the height of human degradation in this country, the ANC-led Tripartite Alliance, has always described the South African situation as colonialism of the special type where the coloniser and the colonised shared the common territory.  But its essence remains colonialism.

In his farewell speech, the last Indian Consul in Durban, Mandla Moodley, noted the hostile attitude of the South African media to the new South Africa.  Indeed the white establishment media behave exactly as the French media and the Portuguese media behaved towards Algeria and the former African Portuguese colonies immediately after their independence.  This section of the media is not only racist but is also colonial.  The concept of freedom of the press is being abused to perpetuate the interests and values of the internal colonial power.

Indeed the establishment print media did not support racism passively.  It itself was a racist institution and it had to protect its own internal racism.  There was no ~apartheid~ law that forced the media to refer to freedom fighters as terrorists nor was there a law forcing media bosses not to trust stories coming from black journalists.  It is not the ~apartheid~ state that made African journalists drink tea out of enamel cups while white journalists drank from decent cups and saucers.

It is more than seven years ago that the ~apartheid~ regime was forced to agree that racism was no longer practicable.  But in those seven years we have not seen any change in the newsrooms and in the editorial boards.  This phenomenon is much more pronounced in the white establishment print media of KwaZulu-Natal.  Out of roughly 200 journalists, sub-editors and editors of Natal Newspapers there are only about ten black African journalists.  If you enter a newsroom in South Africa you may be forgiven if you thought it was a newsroom in France or Germany.  Of course, the media situation is compounded by the sinister activities of the former apartheid covert forces littered in the media.  The media is lagging behind even the white political parties.

Of course, there are visible changes, albeit very slow, in other provinces.  For example, in the Sowetan, City Press, The Star, Sunday Times, Cape Times.  What about KwaZulu-Natal?

In the KZN 2 Nite there are no Africans in the three most important positions.  The regional editor, news editor and political editor.  It is not surprising that the KZN 2 Nite, Friday programme dealing with the media has never featured an African journalist.  Not long ago the news editor of Radio Zulu was an Afrikaner editor, who could not utter a word in Zulu.  KwaZulu-Natal's present Regional News Editor is a person who cannot utter a word in Zulu even though Radio Zulu is the biggest and the most profitable radio station in South Africa.

I was happy when Mphemphethwa spoke about a campaign of vilification against the King of the Zulus.  I cannot but agree with him, but he must look at his own caucus and raise that matter in his own caucus.

In a clever way, the colonial forces within the SABC, after 1994, undertook a programme where there would be some black faces in the senior management and in the lower echelons of the management.  Leaving the middle management which decides the final product in white hands.

It is therefore no coincidence that for example on Saturday, a rally at Impendle which was supposed to be addressed by the President of the ruling party, and his speech was actually read by the ANC National Chairperson and Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, and addressed by the Provincial Minister of Health and Deputy Minister of Defence, was never covered by the SATV.  Yet, the rally of Sifiso Derrick Nene and Holomisa were extensively covered.

I may be asked the question, what was my response when Inkosi Buthelezi addressed a meeting of farmers, the union of farmers here in Pietermaritzburg and was not covered by neither the SATV nor radio.  I would say that was also wrong.

With these circumstances in the media industry, it is therefore not surprising the way the media interprets events in South Africa.  It would be naive to expect such a media to tell the good story of the non-racial and anti-colonial forces.  Take the question of the peace process in KwaZulu-Natal.  The ANC engaged in talks with the National Party in peace talks and the cut-off dates for amnesty.  The media encouraged those talks.

There was pressure from the extreme right-wing white parties on the cut-off date for amnesty.  When President Mandela stood fast on the cut-off date, the media accused him of being intransigent.  When May 10, 1994 was then agreed upon, this was hailed by the colonial media.  All these cut-off dates benefitted the apartheid security forces in the main.  When there are similar talks with the IFP, both the ANC and the IFP are accused of engendering the culture of impunity.  In other words, when the ANC talks to white colonial parties, the colonial media hails those talks.  When the ANC talks to the party with the same constituency, it is heresy.  
We were never accused of engendering the culture of impunity, when the oppressed people said they were not going to take punitive measures against those sections of the white community who for decades voted for racism and apartheid.

Look also at how the colonial media handled the case of Terr Blanche when he was found guilty in a court of law recently.  Suppose Mr Jacob Zuma and Dr Ben Ngubane had behaved exactly the same, the colonial media would have called for their immediate arrests.

Take also the case of the invasion of Bophuthatswana by the AWB and General Viljoen forces.  Dozens of Africans were killed and maimed simply for being Africans.  That is of no interest to the colonial media.  Their interests are in the three Boers who were killed in the process of their invasion.

Fortunately, the establishment print media has no great influence on the minds of our constituency.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two more minutes.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  In a survey just before the Local Government elections, it is indicated that only 7% of Africans got news about those elections from the print media.  If Africans had confidence in the printed word in South Africa, the ANC, IFP and PAC would not have together got about 74% of the votes in the 1994 democratic elections.  We achieved that percentage in spite of and not because of the colonial media.  The question is whether it is strategically correct, to encourage our people to believe in the printed word of the colonial press.

We have often underestimated the combined strength of the ANC, IFP and PAC.  Unfortunately, we still over-emphasise the differences among ourselves even though we represent basically the same constituency.  When the ANC is under constant attack from the colonial media, the IFP rejoices.  Similarly, the ANC still rejoices when the IFP is under media attack even if it is clearly unjustified.

Recently the ANC and IFP demonstrated how much they can achieve if they speak with one voice on matters that are of common interest to both of them.  When the manager of the Spar Store at ~Umbilo~, threw young African kids into a freezer for allegedly breaking a trolley, both the ANC and the IFP stood up and called for justice to be done.  The manager and two others have been fired.

Mr Speaker, to conclude, we do not want a media which will be the mouthpiece of the Government.  Yet we also do not want a media that champions the exclusive interests of the colonial powers.  But we do want a media that will be reflective of the diverse views of our people in their magnificent variety.

Let us create the real South African media, that needs guts, will and vision.  It needs a clear programme of media transformation.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Just when I was about to stop you.  Our next speaker is the hon member Mr A Hamilton who will address the House for 15 minutes.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to congratulate our Premier and the Cabinet on the establishment of the Discretionary Fund.  This is just the kind of streamlining of cumbersome procedures that we need in order to react quickly to urgent needs of the people of our Province.  I have no doubt that ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR A J HAMILTON:  Will you give me some protection from that corner over there, Mr Speaker?  I have no doubt that we can expect more such initiatives from our Premier and the Cabinet and I certainly hope so.  

I regard the Province of KwaZulu-Natal as the giant awakening from a long slumber about to burst into vibrant life in South Africa.

Again in this last financial year we have attracted the lion's share of foreign investment into South Africa of approximately 35%.  We produce approximately 27% of the manufactured Gross Domestic Product of South Africa.  These successes have been achieved in spite of the completely erroneous perception - which I sometimes think is deliberately created by our brethren up north - that KwaZulu-Natal is the most violent and crime ridden province in South Africa.  That is just not the truth.

We are all aware of the massive political change that took place on 27 April 1994 and, in my view a lot of people have not recognised the miraculous nature - and I use that word advisedly - of this transformation.  To the best of my knowledge it is a transition that has no parallel in history.  I also firmly believe that unrealistic expectations by all sectors of the community including business were raised.  Expectations, that if any of us had thought about it, would have been moderated.

Transformation is a lot more than a general election.  It is also and perhaps just as important a transformation of outlook and the realisation of opportunities that transformation and the rejoining of South Africa into the global community offer.

Of course there are many things that need to be done but, if we take an objective view, of where we are three years down the line, I think all South Africans can be proud of our achievements, since election day.  Achievements which are not only worthy of our own pride but are worthy of the admiration of the international community.

Perhaps one of the least recognised and in my view one of the most important changes in the South African business environment is the changed status of the country into nine distinct provinces, each having its own parliament and cabinet and indeed its own unique competitive and comparative advantages.  What this means is that every province needs to examine and understand its advantages and needs to aggressively build on those advantages and to compete with the other provinces for investment both nationally and internationally and in this way the parts will become more virile and the whole will benefit.  What I have just said may seem a glib or simplistic statement, its anything but.  I think the vast majority of South Africans whether businessmen or private individuals or politicians have failed to understand this.

I would like to turn to our own Province of KwaZulu-Natal and its remarkable achievements that have taken place here and will take place in the future.

In order to demonstrate our success story, I spent last Wednesday doing some research into projects underway, beginning or in an advanced planning stage which are going to go ahead and with your permission, sir, I am going to list them, but it must be understood that the following projects are not the only projects.

1.	Toyota Manufacturing.  
	R1,6 billion during the next three years.

2.	SAPREF Refinery.  
	Modernisation and additions to existing plant well in excess of R1 billion.

3.	SAPREF Ethanol Cracking Plant.  
	That is a new development.  A very, very conservative estimate of R4 billion.

4.	Mondi Paper: Improvements and Modernisation.  
	Projects underway and starting at Felixton, Piet Retief and Merebank.  R510 million.  In addition the coated paper plant is moving from Gauteng to KwaZulu-Natal at a cost of R50 million.  Mondi have also invested a further R1 billion in this Province by purchasing H L & H Timber resources.

5.	Iscor.
	Presently engaged in final negotiations for a new mining operation in Zululand in excess of R1,5 billion.

6.	Richards Bay Port. 
	The coming on stream of three additional berths and also the investing in the construction of a 350 000 ton graving dock, which I understand is well down the road.

7.	Robertson Spices. 
	A new 44 million plant in Durban.

8.	International Convention Centre. 
	R275 million.

9.	Hilton Hotels Durban.  
	350 room five star hotel in addition to the second one going up at Port Zimbali.

10.	Umhlanga Gateway Shopping Centre. 
	R300 million.

11.	New Umgeni Business Park.  
	A mixed use industrial development of R5 million.

12.	Natal Parks Board.  
	Upgrading and construction of existing and additional facilities, R132 million.

13.	Wilsons Wharf, Victoria Embankment, Durban, Phase One.
	R307 million.

14.	Huletts Aluminium: Pietermaritzburg. 
	R3,5 billion.

15.	Port of Durban. 
	A new container berth there for about R1 000 million.


16.	Rocpoint.  
	The Point Waterfront development in Durban.  That will be R3 billion.  It has been one of the most complex land acquisition deals ever, where they have been dealing with five separate parties.  It is going ahead and they expect to have people there before the end of the year creating a carnival environment for the holiday season.  It is going ahead and it will be R3 billion.

17.	New Hyatt Hotel. 
	Pavilion site, Upper Marine Parade in Durban, R800 million.

18.	New Stainless Steel Plant in Jacobs. 
	R500 million.

I have not said anything about the new SAPREF plant for R5 billion.  In addition to the above there are a host of smaller developments in the 50 to R100 million bracket such as several new three star hotels and numerous shopping centre upgradings.  

We also have the new King Shaka Airport of approximately R800 million which we hope our objective will be achieved to start work there next year.

Perhaps most important of all is the opportunity of converting Durban's old international airport into a dedicated super container and bulk liquid hub port, the value of which to the KwaZulu-Natal economy is beyond measure and will no doubt be the single greatest engine of growth within our economy.

The above projects prove our success - head and shoulders above other provinces.  However, to ensure that we secure our future as the winning Province we must see to it that we look after our comparative advantages chief of which are our ports.  Whatever the sacrifices we must ensure that Durban and Richards Bay be transformed into dedicated hub ports, each with their own specialist competencies and become hub ports for sub-Saharan Africa, the Indian Ocean Islands, the Middle and Far East and South America together with transhipment facilities.

Make no mistake, to secure this vital element of our economy, we must seize the magnificent opportunity presented to us.  The Port of Durban alone, to emphasise the importance of our ports, the Port of Durban alone is responsible for some 30 000 jobs and has attracted over 350 industries in the Durban functional region, just because it is a port.

We must invest, invest and invest again in the provision of infrastructure for our Province.  That is the way we will become the most successful Province of the Republic of South Africa and ensure a bright and happy future for our people.  

We must of course also recognise our disadvantages and our problems.  We already have heard of crime and violence and in coping with this very difficult problem perhaps one of the things we should be doing in this Parliament is calling on the Central Government along with the eight other Premiers in South Africa for the restoration of police powers to the provinces.  This is unanimously called for by all nine Premiers in South Africa.

However, what I call for and what I plead for in this House is to concentrate on the things that we are doing well at, on our advantages and our opportunities.  Not to be sunk and be dismayed by the things that are wrong, tackle the things that are wrong, get on with it.  Call for the restoration of police powers, give the police real teeth, but at the same time concentrate on the right things we have got and get on and become a winning Province, because there is one thing for sure, you can only win if you believe you are a winner and this Province certainly is, let us get on and believe it.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Next will be the hon member Mr Mabuyakhulu who will address the House for nine minutes.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Although in general terms the Legislature has both the oversight and the review functions in matters of governance it has, however, a final say on matters of the budget.  At this very Legislature last year, I introduced my contribution by reminding the hon members that: 
	The budget process was not just about another ritual that we as members of the Legislature have to perform but it is about a process where we seriously decide about the allocation of resources.

In this debate, I want to focus on the impact of the budget on the economy.  It is a matter of common cause that the budgetary process is about making choices about the scarcity of the resources.  Following from this argument it therefore becomes imperative that budgetary decisions of necessity should be formed by the economic choices that we make rather than narrow and partisan political interests.  I think we need to look at the score sheet.  What does the score sheet say to us?  What does it tell us?

Have we been consistent in making budgetary decisions that are supportive of the economic requirements of the transition?  Why the principle of a zero-based budget is still not being entertained and rather we opt for an incremental approach to the budget?

Can we really say that the handling of the major issues around the economy is not being compromised in favour of expedient political gains?  Here I want to take issue in the manner in which the proposed changes to the Gambling Board have been handled.  Although some may say the rumblings between the Board and the Premier is just a storm in a teacup, it however, has serious consequences, and its consequences has already led to unnecessary delays and has created uncertainty with political investors.  Gambling offers key economic instruments that could spread investment across the Province.

When this Province adopted the growth and development strategy, there was unanimous understanding that the prioritisation of the Province's budget was to be based on the seven programmes of the growth and development strategy.  Does this budget reflect those seven programmes of the growth and development strategy in a serious way?  If not, why?

I am strongly of the opinion that the Government budget in process has been largely unchanged.  There is no medium term expenditure framework that sets out key priorities and rolling programmes in the Province.  We still cannot say with confidence what the capital budget is and how much of the public investment is going into the economy and how it will boost our growth rate and the impact it may have on the private sector.

As a matter of urgency we need to get all Government departments to integrate their planning and budgeting processes.  If our provincial economy is a priority we would seriously do something with the less than 1% budget allocation to the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  We can no longer find any excuse on the fact that there is no coherent policy on provincial assets and that the Provincial Government is not aware about what it owns and whether it is earning revenue or not on those assets.

We also need to move swiftly in developing an official policy on public and private partnerships.  In such a policy we must say what activities can be concessioned to the private sector as a method of increasing investment in the economy, particularly given resource constraint.  What are Government assets that can be concessioned to the private sector that would relieve the drain on the fiscus eg, the number of the game reserves, the building and services etcetera.

In line with the commonly shared principle, that we need to build a growing and efficient economy, do we think that the current approach was provincial parastatals is the one that see us realising our objectives of an efficient and a growing economy?

Unless we learn from the international experience our dream will remain a smoke pipe.  the international trend is to capitalise parastatals on a once off basis and make them more competitive and increase the quality and efficiency of their services.

If we continue with the old way of conducting business and not providing the appropriate institutions for the private sector to take a more active role in the economy, the ratio of private sector, in particular big business investment in the Province will gradually decline.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two minutes.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Through public private sector partnerships we may create an environment in which the private sector that have the projects, the expansion plans that are also looking for equity partners to invest in this Province.

As a matter of urgency we need to determine what industrial sectors should be built in this Province.  What is KwaZulu-Natal's view on this, given South Africa's membership of the World Trade Organisation?  The effect of scaling down on tariffs and its impact on the clothing, textiles, motor vehicle and components, footwear and leather.  We are losing jobs every day.  Which sectors are we going to grow to become internationally competitive and what support are we going to provide as a Government to enable these sectors to adjust.

The public has been given the impression that funds are used to support the bloated bureaucracy.  Can we really say that this is certainly untrue?  Do we know the exact percentage of the Provincial budget that goes to the recurrent costs as civil servants remunerations and packages?  The public wants to proceed with the right sizing project with maximum speed.  This must be given priority if we are to increase our capital budget.

Finally, we need a coherent economic infrastructure plan.  Apart from putting resources to strengthen the Province's infrastructure for investment in La Mercy Airport, we must also come up with a holistic integrated development framework that indicates where do we want roads, telecommunications, bulk water supplies and where do we see the future of industrial location, given the demise of the old apartheid incentive packages.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is over.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  We must also develop an economic policy for small towns and decentralised areas in decline.  In this policy we need to grapple with what is the future of these areas.

Finally, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I will give you half a minute.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  If we do not get in touch with the needs of a modern economy and the need for a day to day contact with a dynamic private sector, we stand the risk of having very elusive ideas but that can never come to fruition.  The ANC surely does not want to be part of that.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mabuyakhulu.  I wish to call upon the hon member Mr Rajbansi to address the House for 12 minutes. 

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am very honoured to follow an excellent speech that was delivered by the hon Mr Mike Mabuyakhulu.  But of course a small fraction of his speech painted a very gloomy picture as compared to the excellent picture that was painted, of economic growth in our Province by the hon Minister of Economic Affairs, Mr Jacob Zuma, at the recent Transformation Seminar in Durban.

In spite of this disappointment of the prophets of gloom or doom, our country is alive, it is well, it is moving, it is shaking and we are clicking.  There are historical reasons for that.  KwaZulu-Natal, according to the statistics given by the hon Mr Alex Hamilton, is also doing well.  In spite of all the negative forces this Province is on the move.

We must thank our new Constitution, because there is emphasis on transparency, there is emphasis on parliamentary accountability.  Today we can say, because parliamentary accountability has been accepted, that when we took stock of ourselves there were wrongdoings in every department without exception, no matter how small or big.  But there is one difference, every Minister, every member of the Cabinet, every portfolio committee that deals with the department is unanimous to root out mismanagement, theft and corruption and for that we are proud.

You can attack an ANC Minister or an IFP Minister if they condone corruption, theft or mismanagement.  The very fact that we have not been able to find out all those missing personnel, the very fact that the hon Mr Volker has given us details about false ID numbers, is proof of the fact there is investigation, there are arrests, there are trials and there are convictions.  So you cannot paint the IFP black, neither can you paint the ANC black.

I hold a small portfolio and communication in the Parliamentary Board and we have the responsibility to ensure that this Legislature and this Government has a good image.  I say to every member of this Legislature, before you criticise, before you utter a negative statement, check the facts.  For the first time we learnt today from the hon Mr Morris MacKenzie, that the so-called Discretionary Fund was approved unanimously by the Cabinet.

I want to say one thing, which the press must take very strong note of.  The hon Premier came to the Finance Committee meeting when we dealt with the budget of the Premier and he sat there, he had a friendly exchange with the hon Dr Mike Sutcliffe, not on the issue, but on something else where hon Dr Mike Sutcliffe placed his version on record, and the Premier gave a detailed explanation about these Discretionary Funds.

I think it is most unfair to this Government, it is most unfair to this Legislature, after having listened to the hon Premier, after having heard the explanation that the Budget Council, which consists of members of the Finance Committee of this Legislature, is going to play a vital role in respect of how those Discretionary Funds are going to be used, to continue referring to those funds in a derogatory term as slush funds.

I want the hon members to listen very carefully to what I am saying now, that during question time, either on specific matters when the Premier was here in the Finance Committee, not a single member of that Finance Committee ever questioned, queried or criticised the Premier.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is right.  That is quite true.

MR A RAJBANSI:  This is where you criticise.  You do not do cheap politicking outside this Legislature.  I can fill the newspapers with headlines if only I want to deceive myself and not someone else.

The hon Mr Makhaye referred to the media.  I would not present it as he has done, but I want to give certain examples.  Last Wednesday I was invited to a function at Chatsworth where the hon Mayor of South Central Council officially opened a new city police headquarters.  She cut the ribbon, she was the main speaker, her council decided, but when I opened the Natal Mercury the following morning I saw the biggest coloured picture ever published in the Natal Mercury of an official called Mr F Taylor.  Nothing about the Mayor, nothing about the cutting of the ribbon.

Then I went to another function where the North Central Council Mayor announced a major project.  There were photographs taken but when I opened the newspaper, the Daily News, and found only two centimetres about the Mayor, the bureaucrats were taken to the site separately, a photograph was taken.

We need loyalty, we need commitment.  It is no sense standing in this Legislature and say, "We have had three years of democracy", when you pass a black township that was impoverished, did not know water, did not know electricity that is the score.  That is the language the layman and the broad suffering masses of this country are understanding.

On 27 April we celebrated throughout the country in every province that great victory.  Victory for peace, not victory for ANC or IFP.  Education was the host.  You could count how many education department officials were present.  Only one.  Only one, and we all were the hosts.  We are supposed to be telling the country and telling the world we are at a celebration, celebrating freedom on 27 April.  What hypocrisy.  What cheat?  Yet we do not want to follow the greatest teaching of the Bible or the Koran or the Bhagvad Gita that when you want to criticise, find the truth. 

Today, I want to say, find a Minister who is not taking action in his department against theft, irrespective of whether that Minister is IFP or ANC.  There were 30 000 people in Kings Park on 27 April.  What did the newspaper say the following morning?  I measured with a ruler three centimetres.  If I stood up on that platform and I said, "I am convinced that there are 50 000 ghosts, shall I say employees in the KwaZulu-Natal Government", they would have carried half a page of headlines without checking the facts.

I made a criticism and I once delivered my justified criticism on a Local Government matter to a senior journalist in the Natal Mercury and the Natal Daily News.  Nothing was published but the same thing was taken by another party.  They had six insertions with three photographs on what I said and it was not published.  I do not blame the journalists but there are people in this country who have refused to change.

I want to say in response to hon Mr Blessed Gwala, there are exceptions in every community.  We owe allegiance to the King.  As anybody living in England will say, "She is not the Queen of the English people, she is the Queen of England".  India is a tourist haven.  India gets only two million tourists per year.  Singapore is not a tourist haven, they get six million people landing at Singapore Airport.  Ask yourself why.  

Let us give the highest priority to economic development.  Let us not look and say, "Well, there is crime and there is violence we are not going to develop economically".  There are people who believe and they want to paint this Province black because they said in India, India would not survive one year, but the democracy has survived there.  Today we are proud of the fact that our President, our country is playing an important role in the international arena.

I speak as a loyal South African.  I have great faith in the future of this Province.  We have our turbulence and which country does not have turbulence during times of change.

I want to make an appeal.  There is such a thing that is called political honesty.  We have a new Premier in this Province.  We are proud of him.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We are proud of him.  I know that he is doing well, he means well.  He is worried about the 30 000 who have lost their jobs in the casinos.  I may differ, but I am not here to protect white investor interests.  What is happening, there are certain people under the cover of a smoke screen that I want to criticise.  I am not prepared to protect investor interest.

Our casino legislation is not written well.  Section 6 and 7 conflicts with another section, where you give the Minister the power to make regulations and policy in the regulations and it gives policy making powers in section 6 and 7 of the Gambling Act to the Gambling Board.  The Premier has never said in a briefing to us that he is interfering with the autonomous right of the Board to be the sole casino licensing agency.  I am going to deal with that in the Premier's vote.

I am making an appeal.  Let us put the image of this Legislature because people down at grass-roots level will pass a judgment, the thinking will be conditioned according to the news that flows from this Legislature.  Criticise, condemn as much as you can but condemn with facts and condemn with truth and with truth we shall chime.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Rehman who will address the House for 15 minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, three years have elapsed since our new found democracy, yet there appears to be a serious outcry with regard to the provision of general and specific services.

Why is this so?  Why has the ambitious promises of the RDP failed to materialise?  Expectations were raised during the pre-election period and the people at grass-roots level envisaged an almost overnight transformation of what exists, and still exists.

At that stage the IFP was not part of the electioneering campaign.  We believed and still believe that a federal system of Government is the solution to effective, and efficient delivery.  Our colleagues in the opposite camp tried to prove us wrong.  Hence we sit today trying to resolve an endless number of problems.  Problems emanating from promises made by other political groupings.

Finance is the driving force behind any form of chance.  Our efforts in trying to address inequalities from the past have been thwarted and frustrated by the element of "feet dragging" by the National Government.  We are at present depicted as a Provincial Government standing hat in hand waiting mercifully for "big brother" in Cape Town to make a donation.  In the meanwhile we in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal are made to appear like stooges simply rubber stamping and pandering to the whims and fancies of the National Government.

Capital projects in most instances have to be halted because of severe financial cutbacks.  

Nevertheless, against this gloomy backdrop, the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature under the able and astute leadership of Dr Ben Ngubane, forged ahead in trying to make the best of existing resources.

KwaZulu-Natal is leading the way by introducing a biometrics access system which stops cheque fraud.  Cheque fraud in itself is not a new evil.  The National Government who initiated this form of malpractice must accept the responsibility for what is being practised today.  While the IFP views cheque fraud with the utmost contempt, perpetrators are being brought to book and officials who are being incriminated, are being thoroughly investigated and if proved guilty will incur the wrath of the law.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M F REHMAN:  The Biometrics Access System (B.A.S) uses a basic fingerprint identification.  It is 100% foolproof and can be admitted as evidence in court.  KwaZulu-Natal became the first branch of Government in South Africa to introduce the system which was depicted in Australia.

Our hon Premier, Dr Ben Ngubane, said that due to the high level of financial fraud currently plaguing Government departments, it has been decided to finance the BAS.  The cost of implementing the system is a relatively cheap R1,5 million considerably less than the amounts stolen in Government.

The system requires each official responsible for issuing Government cheques, to enter his or her password and give a fingerprint identification.  In the past, illegal access to the provincial data capture facilities could be gained via personal user codes and secret passwords.  In effect every payment generated would be recorded against the name of the specifically identified official within each department.  Such evidence would be sufficient evidence in a court of law when prosecuting perpetrators.

KwaZulu-Natal already suffers a high incidence of Government fraud and corruption, with cheque fraud topping the list of crimes.  This system will be implemented to control the authorisation of all the payments in the Government system, including payment of creditors and paying the salaries of public servants.  The Province of KwaZulu-Natal has spearheaded this development and implementation of this highly sophisticated system which will undoubtedly be expanded throughout Government, in the near future.

We all know that the provinces come in for much more criticism than the Central Government, especially when the Province is not governed by the ruling party of the country.  We have to remind our critics that the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, being the largest of the nine provinces, has had the unbelievable task of integrating the administrations which were divided by apartheid, and which were in many instances undermined by uncertainty in the dying years of the old system.  I believe that we as a Province, must be judged in terms of the powers, the responsibilities and the capacities actually devolved to us.  It is for this reason that we in the IFP have always spoken with one voice, which is federal powers for all provinces.

There are instances of which you are all aware, in which policies are decided at central level without adequate consultation with the provinces.  There must be more interaction between the Central Government and the provinces to contribute to the co-operation which we all know to be vital.

About 40% of the population of our Province are unemployed.  For this we need to attract and facilitate investments in manufacturing, construction, property, tourism, agriculture and agro industry.

The growth record shows that the new economic activity in the region is outstripping at least six out of the nine provinces.  Many new developments should maintain this momentum with areas like the Tugela Basin, the vital Richards Bay Port, and the commercial hub of Durban, exploiting their potential as viable and indeed thriving economic nodes.

People must feel and accept that KwaZulu-Natal is the home of both urban and traditional Zulus, other African minorities, Muslims, Hindus, Tamils, Afrikaners, English, Jews and Coloureds.  Our unity must be based on a complete and utter trust that every multi-cultural community and its leadership is as fully and unconditionally respected as any other.

I am certain that we can share and live together as brothers and sisters in this wonderful Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  Next to speak is the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi who will address the House for 12 minutes.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to speak in this debate which is the budget debate.   The first thing I want to say, I want to voice my disappointment and sadness, because I find myself with my tail between my legs, because the son of the induna quoted from the Bible so well, that he quoted better than I, a son of a minister.

But Mr Speaker, I also want to quote and say that on a certain day ten people came to Jesus.  They were suffering from leprosy.  When they came to Him they asked Him to heal them.  He sent them and said they must go and wash in the river.  After that only one came back.  The nine others did not come back.

Then Jesus asked and said, 'Sir, where are the other nine?'. The person answered and said he did not know.  The reason I am saying this is that it is easy to find fault and to destroy but it is difficult to say thank you.  I, as an adult, perceive that my wish is about to come true in this Legislature.  One only has to look back three years ago, we have come a long way.  T/E

The level of debate in this chamber has really improved tremendously.  We are now debating issues, not personalities or differences.


TRANSLATION: I am thankful for that, I as an adult, that we are going forward.  There is something which was mentioned by Mr Gwala regarding our ~ubuKhosi~.  Although I agree with him in regard to a lot that he said, but I want to disagree with him on a small thing.  Because he says, '~Inkosi~ is an ~Inkosi~ of Zulus here'.  No, I do not agree with that.

Every person who is here in this land of ~Mthaniya~ is a person who falls under the ~Inkosi~, and an ~Inkosi~ of KwaZulu is an ~Inkosi~ of all the people of KwaZulu. T/E

I think the very fact that we are dividing our people by thinking that there are those people who are not members of the Zulu nation.  Those people who feel that they are not members of the Zulu nation, they are not Zulus in this country, then they do not belong here.

[As I am saying, I spent ten and something years in England]. 

I paid allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen.  I sang "God bless the Queen" although I knew that she was a product of colonialism which colonised my people, but 

TRANSLATION:  But I lived under them.  That is evidenced by the fact Mr Speaker, because even when we speak here we try to bite our tongues in an effort to speak English. T/E

It is good so that everybody can understand. [but] I think we are overemphasising. 




TRANSLATION:  Why is it that we always want to think of others when they do not think of us, whereas they are our people?  Can you not see that you are discriminating against these other Africans because you think to yourself no, they do not understand Zulu, so we will speak English for their benefit?  You are discriminating against the people of the Inkosi and you will be held accountable.

Another thing that I think causes this, as it is as the hon Dumisani was saying, he is not a boy.  I almost said he was a boy.  He is not a man that I often agree with, but he said an important thing today regarding the press.  Where are they?  T/E

As long as we do not fight then there is no coverage.  If we can fight ~kubaleka~ ~kubaleke~ ~nabakithi~ ~besiZulu~.  If we can fight ~kungabe~ ~sekuyona~ into ~ehamba~ ~phambili~.  

, we have come a long way. 

TRANSLATION: As long as we do not fight there is no coverage.  But if we fight it is written in all the papers including the Zulu press.  If we fight that would be the thing that they place emphasis on.  So Mr Speaker, I say we must praise and announce the fact that, we have come a long way.  T/E 

I listened to a report from the NCOP that our members who came from different parties, when they went to Cape Town to debate the matters and issues and the interests of this Province, they spoke with one voice.  I think we must appreciate that in this debate, which at least we do recognise that we belong to one Province.

[So and so allegedly - I did not hear this with my own ears] Pik Botha told Comrade Ramaposa when they were fishing, he said to him, "My friend, you know there are sharks on the right of the boat and there are sharks on the left of the boat, if the boat capsizes the sharks will not choose whether this is the left winger or the right winger, we will all be eaten".  Which means that whatever happens to us, whether it is ANC, IFP, PAC, NP you name them, if this Province collapses all of us will collapse.

Let me come to the question of the Discretionary Fund.  I think I must come to that.  I support the question of having the Discretionary Fund to help the Premier and the Cabinet.  There was also something mentioned about these funds going to be given to help the ANC and the IFP to make peace.  I think some people are critical of that, I do not agree with those people.  I agree we must be realistic, we must live in this world and this Province and not in the other world.

There has been a problem, if it came from my friend he will listen to me.  I hope he is not going to withdraw the gift of green mealies he is going to give me this afternoon.  [LAUGHTER]  We must live in this world.  There is a problem, I think the Cabinet is right to give the facilities to the IFP and the ANC to try and address that problem as soon as possible.  What I would be against is that the ANC and the IFP create their own domains, then they say, "This is an IFP dominated territory so we do not want the PAC here, we do not want the ANC here".

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  And so the ANC says the same thing.  Of course there can be no PAC dominated territory, because the policy of the PAC is to talk to the people and ask the people to believe in the PAC and not force them to do that.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Now as the member of the PAC, I think I must correct some of the notions which may be dwindling in some people's heads about the killing of the farmers on the farms.  It is very well-known that the PAC was involved in some killing of the farmers in the areas.  I want to make it clear.  [I want to make it clear as a son of a believer].   

Yes, the PAC was involved in a liberation struggle and at the time the PAC saw some of the farmers and who have been borne out as being part of the system of oppression.  That is why we have the farmers who have bodies being dug out on the farms because some farms were used for that.

But before April 27, the PAC sat down with the arms struggle.  We have reached the goal and we are not involved in the killing of our brothers and sisters only because they are farmers, although some of them of course were involved in that.  We think that the TRC will deal with those.  So it must be very, very, clear that the PAC is clean on what is happening and the PAC condemns it with all the power which it has.  Unfortunately, the press will not even quote.  I hope they will quote this piece, which the PAC has nothing and the PAC condemns the killings.  All that we want the farmers to do know is to produce food for our people.  That is all, and of course become politicians, choose the party which they like and be members of that party.  The PAC has nothing to do with that, we are clear and clean on that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two more minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  In the last two minutes I want to comment on the education issue.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  There were five different, what would you call them, departments created by the ~apartheid~ system.  An effort has been made and is still being made to amalgamate all of them.  I think they are now very well toward amalgamation, although it is not an easy thing.  This has been on for many years and you cannot hope that it will be corrected overnight.

What I want to say is that although we are now one department there is still a cry of unequal facilities.  I want to plead with the Minister and his Ministry to see to it that those who were left behind must be given priority.  Those that were ahead may they please mark time and wait for those.  You do not bring them down.  Those who have those facilities let them keep those facilities in the interests of the progress of this Province, but those that were down, could they be please brought up.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to point a very strong finger to the parents.  The parents are not playing their role in schools.  The parents are not helping the Ministry.  The parents are not helping the teachers.  The teachers need help.  The learners need help from the parents.

And finally, the issue of security in schools.  Yes, we want teachers and learners to be secured but we do not think that security is the responsibility of the Education Department, it is the responsibility of the Ministry of Safety and Security.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Next will be the hon member Mr Dlamini who will address the House for nine minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, [My leadership has asked me to address the question of social transformation].

Social transformation is, from my own point of view and perhaps other people, a multi-faceted arrangement of social relationships and interaction between groups, which may have a byproduct which brings about change in the society in general.  This could mean change in the race groups, in the age groups, in gender, in religion and social economic status.  At a more generic level these social arrangements refer to Parents and Children, to Youth and Adults, to Men and Women, to Teachers and Students, to Employers and Employees.

Social transformation is about a change in attitudes, a new definition of responsibility, a change in the philosophy of life, beliefs and fundamentals that we are prepared to die for.  People have to define and redefine their social responsibility.  The Freedom Charter was an embodiment of social transformation, which Charter has, as we know, been translated into the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

Reconstruction of the South African's way of life means that people take charge of their own lives.  It does not help for the Government to hold certain views unless the people have a conviction and commitment towards transformation.  If we mean business about social transformation, there should be a strong focus on social development, particularly youth development.

There is a critical need for youth involvement in NGOs and other organs of civil society.  There is a need for youth to define in clear terms, focused needs and the role of youth in meeting these needs.  We will be watching the growth of the Youth Commission with keen interest in this respect.

SPORTS
Social transformation in the sports arena is likely to take a long time if concentration is on the development of middle class facilities and neglecting development of similar facilities in rural areas.  Sporting facilities need to be accessible to people for sports to be a meaningful tool for development of our communities.

EDUCATION
We can never overemphasise the role of education in social transformation both in the process of acculturation and in the process of development.  We need a policy to open tertiary institutions to communities for the development of communities in many respects that would enhance social transformation.

ROLE OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR TOWARDS SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION
Perhaps we need to say a word on the role of the private sector towards social transformation.  My colleague the hon Mr Dumisani Makhaye has illustrated the point that the private sector does not reflect the composition of the South African population in terms of the management roles.

From the hon Mr Alex Hamilton we heard good news about the economic growth in the pipeline and huge amounts of money that are going to be invested in economic development in this Province.  We need to ask ourselves what is the role that the deprived communities are going to play in the employment of that capital.  Either as people who are employed in meaningful decision making roles or perhaps buying in into those enterprises that will be for the economic development of this country.

Are we still talking about investments that will only favour those that have always enjoyed to cream this country of all its wealth, or are we saying this development will be regarded as meaningful economic development, because it will involve the entire population of this Province?

Perhaps there is a serious need for the private sector to subject itself to monitoring, on the extent of the achievement of affirmative action and the achievement of the role that it has played in nurturing and ensuring, that all the people of this country grow.

Perhaps it is high time we had some form of legislation on affirmative action.  I do really think that this is long overdue. This kind of legislation on affirmative action should not be misinterpreted to mean just a sheer mixing of colours and a sheer mixing of gender.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One minute.

MR F DLAMINI:  It should be for economic reasons.  This is what I would call social transformation.  

RESIDENTIAL ARRANGEMENT
Mr Speaker, I was going to talk about the residential arrangements and the need to change these.  Some of the successes of apartheid were to make some people believe that single hostel life was a normal way of life.  The continued existence of single hostels is an infringement of human dignity as spelt out in Chapter 2, section 10 of the Constitution.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR F DLAMINI:  Our Government should define a time span within which to convert single hostels to family units, and this is social transformation where families will live normal lives in the country of their birth.  Establishment of hostels was one of the worst of apartheid's creations that disorganised families, particularly African families.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Our next speaker to take the floor will be the hon member ~Inkosi~ ~Khawula~ [who will speak for 15 minutes].

THE SPEAKER:  Order please

THE SPEAKER: [The Hon Member has two more minutes left].

TRANSLATION:  I am grateful and thankful Mr Chairman, that in this house we have been given freedom.  We have been given the opportunity to speak on whatever topic.  The topic that I want to speak on, I want to introduce it first.

God, Mr Chairman, created this land and He made it a beautiful land, a wealthy land.  He then brought us to this land.  He brought us in a good way to this land.  He brought the trees, all the different trees.  Even though we got here first, that is we Zulus, but other nations also arrived.  When they arrived we were already here and we lived well with them.

In this land we want for nothing.  In other countries, Mr Chairman, people are very poor.  I have seen pictures on television.  If you look at these pictures on the television you see pictures that are being shown of people and children who are so thin that you can count their ribs, because of poverty, because they live in countries that do not have wealth.

Here, in this our land, you will not see a child in that condition, you will not see an adult in that condition.  But this land of ours, we ourselves have turned it around and spoilt it and it has become a bad land.  Originally when God made it for us, He made it a beautiful land.  We have created violence in this country.  You now hear of other countries referring to this land as a violent land, because people are not living well in this land any more.

People are dying, they are dying every day but our leaders in the upper echelons keep on talking every day about the fact that the violence must end.  Father Mandela has spoken many times here.  He even said that the weapons should be taken, that is including firearms, and thrown into the sea and that violence must end.

But the violence has not ended.  People are dying.  Something that surprised us when Mr Ntombela, when he went with the buses to the rally at KwaQanda, they were shot at.  The people in the buses were shot at.  Eighteen people were killed.  But what is surprising, it was only one person, a judge, a judge said they were travelling in an area where they should not have been, they were travelling in an area which is known as a no-go area, hence nobody would be prosecuted.

But as far as this country is concerned, God did not create it in such a way that there will be places where we will be able to walk on it and there will be other places that we will not be able to walk on it.  I thought it was good in this House, and I am referring to you, my brothers of the ANC, and to you my sisters of the ANC, that because the spirit is good here in this House, we laugh with each other, if I look at you in this House, you are all beautiful like women, as if you all wear powder, whereas in fact you do not. [LAUGHTER].

Now I am asking you to be beautiful even outside of this House.  Go and tell the people that you represent, that we are now laughing and joking with each other in this House.  We are one, with you.  Say to your people that you represent, become one outside, do not shoot each other.  This demeans the dignity of this House.  Those that are listening here in this House can see that there is a good understanding between us but if you go outside and you look at the TV you see that people have been killed, very many people have been killed.

Let us conduct ourselves well and not lie to each other.  As I am speaking the president of the IFP, the Prince of ~KwaPindangene~, the ~Inkosi~ of the Buthelezi's, has a festering wound which has not healed.  He often says, 'But my people, the leaders of the IFP, 400 of them, who has killed them?  Who has killed the people who are the leaders of the IFP, numbering almost 400?  Is there not even one person who is going to be prosecuted, not even one?  Who has killed them?'

As I speak, in 1995 on 15 December we did not have a good Christmas.  We and the Prince of ~KwaPindangene~, we were burying the people who were killed at ~Izingolweni~ in the area of the ~Inkosi~ Samuel.  Thirteen people, children, who were going to a rally which was to be addressed by Inkosi Buthelezi.  Not one person has been arrested up until now.  Why are they not arrested?

I say this country of ours, we have spoilt it.  This is no longer a beautiful country.  As I speak, a lot of people outside and people in the cities and people in the rural areas, there are people who owned their own businesses, who have been hit and everything that they had has been destroyed.  A lot of people are wandering around.  They do not have places to live because of violence, this violence that has been created, that does not want to end.  Let us end the violence, please, so that we may be acceptable in God's sight.  We are no longer acceptable to God.  Outside this House there are people who are poverty stricken, who do not have places to live.  They go up and down, their businesses were hit, everything was smashed up, their houses were smashed up, their children were killed.  But the very important thing is that there are many policemen and many soldiers.

I do not know what they are up to, because I see them wandering around there in the hills of the ~KwaHlongwa~ area, instead of going to where people are being killed.  Indeed, I do not know how we could inform Mr Mufamadi that no, you must send soldiers and the stability unit of yours, send them to where the people are being killed.

Do not take your soldiers and send them to places where people are not being killed.  In order to catch these rogues that kill people because as we are sitting in this House, as we are all seated here, no one would come forward from this House and say I have an AK47.  Not one of you would come forward.  Not one of you has an AK47.  But God knows all the people who have them, these AK47s that are out there in the uninhabited places.  People will say they do not have them and then go out and kill people.

The G3s have been taken away [LAUGHTER].  Now people are not being arrested, especially those people that are being killed who are members of the IFP.  Nobody gets arrested in regard to that.  There is a lot of chewing going on but the chewing is very one-sided, the mouth chews on one side only.  The Government arrests so many people but only the IFP people get arrested.  People are not arrested on the other side, we are being arrested every day.

How are we going to like this Government that does not lead even-handedly, that does not lead us all like its children, that does not treat us in the same fashion.  We see the police, we are saying let the people of the ANC also be arrested, those people that kill IFP members.  They must also be arrested.  We must not be the only ones that are arrested.

As I am speaking now, it has happened again that people have died at Izingolweni, again people have died, eleven people have died.  These thirteen people died at Izingolweni, these eleven people died at ~Izingolweni~.  That is one place.  Up until today no one has been arrested.  I think some people have been arrested there because it was you that was dying, when we die nobody gets arrested.  People on both sides should be arrested so that peace will be restored, and we will live in harmony together.

Tell the police that they must also arrest you.  In order for us now to be true to ourselves in this House, let us go out from here and go to the place which you control where you are a leader, let us not hear when we watch television that in the area which you control people have been shot.  All of us, let us go out from here and make it possible for people not to be shot, let us build the people up.  Let them work together and become one.  A person belonging to the IFP and a person belonging to the ANC must become one.  We must not smile at each other while we are killing each other.

The whites here are laughing at us.  They are sitting in this House laughing at us.  We are becoming a subject of their mirth because we are finishing each other off.  That we handed the Government over to these people, now they are finishing each other off.  We know that they started first, that is accepted but that is past.

Mr Chairman, as I am standing here I am standing so that I can speak about violence, because violence is bad, violence is destroying the people, even small children are being killed.  As I speak, in a lot of places people are sleeping out in the open, in the veld.  In a lot of places people are being shot.  It used to be said that people were shot by the G3s, now they are being shot with the AK47.  Always the AK47s are found in the possession of people who are not ~Inkatha~ people, they are not found in possession of Inkatha people.

The killers are also not ~Inkatha~ people, these rogues that rob the banks, they are not ~Inkatha~ people.  There are many rogues that rob the banks.  They know what is said about which side has been caught.  You spur me on knowing, you searched me knowing, all this corruption that exists, colleagues we must not - you see you of the ANC, we respect you because you are the Government, we are led by Mr Mandela.

Mr Mandela belongs to the ANC.  So you must be the people that builds justice, more than any other party because you have a leader, you must not build corruption more than any other 
party.

Mr Chairman, it is my pleasure sir, now because I have got off my chest what I intended to get off my chest in this House, and I have told the people what I wanted to tell them, that is that they should stop being nice and pleasant and that people should not be killed, that there should be peace outside of this House, and people should not be afraid of each other outside of this House.  It should not happen that a leader is involved in corruption and dirty deeds, a leader should be involved in being a peacemaker and at building up the people to make them one.  Thank you sir.  T/E

THE SPEAKER: [We thank you sir].  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Naicker who will address the House for ten minutes.  

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, it is a great privilege to follow the hon ~Inkosi~ ~Khawula~.  If I heard him correctly, there was  wisdom, there was maturity and I think this House has to heed certain of his utterances.  Having heard other speakers emphasise the importance of Parliament, as much as we emphasise the importance of Parliament then equally there should be the disciplines that go along with that.

If I say that, in any given situation the very essence of this debate is a no-confidence debate, but indeed I do not find any Ministers on this side.

AN HON MEMBER:  Ja, where are the Ministers?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR S V NAICKER:  There is one, at least one.  But in essence this is a no-confidence debate.  That is the essence of this debate.  In that sense it is absolutely imperative that all the Ministers should be present and naturally there should be no holds barred as far as one's feelings are concerned.  This we have done for the fourth year.  But I have heard, if I heard Mr Ngidi, he spoke his heart from the ANC about the needs of people but then I find other senior officials, like the official from the NCOP claiming credit for the ANC.

I want to tell this House that the very term Government is merely a glorified term.  Again in essence we are a service orientated institution.  Mahatma Gandhi said let us not speak to each other, go out and reach out to the persons of the country, which we should be doing.

This afternoon's debate, I have changed my entire theme from what I actually wanted to contribute, having seen this proposed Bill before me here.  I want to emphasise on the factual situation of crime.  I have heard the hon Mr Hamilton give us a thesis about the economic growth of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  We appreciate the thesis that you have given this House.  But side by side the hon member equally emphasised the crime factor.

I ask you, Mr Speaker, and to every member in this House how do we answer the world with a Bill of this nature?  This Bill, fund for victims of violent crimes.  When I left home this morning all the way from Zululand, innocent people told me, "Mr Naicker, please tell Parliament to convey the message to our hon President Mandela, whom the world respects, to perhaps do his duty which he is doing internationally but leave the deep waters and save our people and the lives here".

Here we have a Bill, we have a TRC, we have the Land Restitution Act, now we have the Bill.  The question is what are we genuinely doing to circumvent the situation that leads to this violence.  What are we doing to curb it?  The hon Inkosi spoke.  The Bill states it is a common concern that the crime levels in South Africa have reached alarming proportions.  This fact has been well documented by figures and released from time to time by the Minister of Safety and Security and also the South African Police Service.

Another even more worrying trend has been the significant increase in violent crimes.  It is in a form of a Bill.  It is a document.  It is not rhetoric, it is factual.  Yes, the Government is taking action but what are they doing to circumvent that situation?

Over and above 50% of the population of this Province, or even perhaps of the country are to an extent impoverished, and 50% of them over and above earn below R1 000,00 a month.  They have to be provided for.  I have heard the hon member from the NCOP speak about past policies, but let us not live with the past, let us look at the present and let us look at the future and restructure the future.  How are we going to restructure the future if we are not going to be practical and find solutions?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR S V NAICKER:  The hon ~Baba~  ~Khawula~ said it is the legacy of the past.  If we are going to perpetually live in the legacy of the past, it is not going to help us for the future.  How many members in this House with honesty have experienced crime and violence.  In my yard I had 40 bullets, let this House know, and among the bullets there were army PSN bullets.  Where did they come from?  During the last weekend I had to bury two people who were killed violently, innocent souls.

So therefore, for all the rhetorics this is the Legislature, right.  The hon Mr Rehman spoke about communication with Central Government, communications indeed are developing.  What is happening to those silent masses who are being perhaps murdered. 

The hon Mr MacKenzie spoke about agriculture.  There has been an increase by R942 000 to R45 million, just for salaries and forestry.  The hon member is the Chairperson of the Agriculture Portfolio Committee.  I want to appeal to him to look at agriculture and the importance of agriculture in sustaining a nation.  If that money is going to go towards forestation and salary for personnel, I am afraid the structuring, the planning and the vision of agriculture is not going to be satisfactory.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two minutes more.

MR S V NAICKER:  Let us talk about the topical slush fund which everybody is talking about.  We have heard about the Oxford Dictionary.  I hope there is not going to be another dictionary introduced for that particular term.  A Government has to have discretionary funds.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Wessel's dictionary.

MR S V NAICKER:  And therefore there comes a time when a country is faced with a catastrophe where there are no rules, no guidelines to provide and therefore such discretionary funds are meant for those specific purposes, but not for the interests of party politics.  That is important.

Finally, Mr Speaker, let us recommit ourselves with a vision, to look at addressing the silent masses of the country.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mrs Cronje who will address the House for nine minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I am going to talk about transformation of this Parliament, our Legislature.

27 April 1994 was not just another election, it was the formal beginning of the process of reconstructing and transforming the South African society.  Our National Parliament spearheading this process and the Provincial Legislatures, as the most important organs of State, must be in the forefront of transformation of our society.  But charity begins at home and since the Budget Sitting is that time of the year when one takes stock, I want to pose some questions to us as a Legislature; some self-criticism, if you wish.

Before I do so, I want to acknowledge that this Legislature has had and is still having some fine achievements.  Notably with regard to our performance in Cape Town at NCOP level, we have been commended, not only by the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson, but by other provinces as well.

Now, the questions that I want to pose are:

1.	What have we, as the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, done to create a Parliament that is in its essence and in its substance different from the old Natal Provincial Council, when it still existed and which is different from the KwaZulu Legislative Assembly?

2.	What makes us different from the Westminster system?  What makes us uniquely African, uniquely KwaZulu-Natal, uniquely South African and not colonial, or are we still a colonial relic?  I think we should pose those questions to ourselves.

In the Preamble to The Freedom Charter our people pledged:

	And we pledge ourselves to strive together, sparing nothing of our strength and courage, until the democratic changes here set out have been won.

That is in the Freedom Charter.

1.	TEST.

Let us test ourselves and see if we have given effect to the wishes of our people.  

1. Is this Legislature accessible to the people whom we represent and do we ensure their involvement?

Section 118 of our Constitution places a duty, a positive duty, on us to provide for public access to and involvement in all the processes of this Legislature. 

Our Rules have been very progressive in that regard, largely as a result of the ANC's insistence when we first drafted them in 1994, which is that all our Committees must in principle be open to the public and the press.  At that stage some parties did not like it, argued against it.  The ANC is very persuasive.  We convinced them that is how it should be and that is how our Rules have been right from the beginning.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  As a result, when the new Constitution came into effect and we revised our Rules in that regard, very few changes were necessary.  

But, does the theory match the practice?  Our Rules are fine.

How many people, other than the press, and I see not even they are here today, attend our meetings, be they sittings of the House or Committee meetings?  Look up at the public gallery.  How many rural people come to this, their Legislature?  How accessible are we to disabled people?  In fact, how many people even know that our sittings and our committees are open?

Are we ensuring that our children, the young people, the scholars learn the principles of democracy from the very institution, this one, that should be the embodiment of such democracy?  How many schools visit us and become involved in our processes?  This is one of the doors of learning that should be opened and there should be a school here every day.

We all know that the answers to these questions that I have posed are an indictment on all of us and that very few people indeed ever become involved in this, their Legislature.  It is not ours, it is theirs.  We have been put here by the people.

We have therefore failed to ensure in practical terms, I am not talking about the theory, that the "People shall Govern".  In other words, we are still in practice adhering to the Westminster system as opposed to an African system based on a participatory democracy which is very much part of our African tradition and culture.

I therefore invite us all to pledge, like those people at Klip River pledged:

	That we shall work and strive together, sparing nothing of our strength and courage, to ensure that by the next Budget Sitting this Legislature will be a uniquely African institution, truly making it possible for our people to be involved in our work and deliberations. 
	
Now that would be transformation!

2.	WOMEN

The second question I want to pose or the second issue I want to turn to in this Legislature is the issue of women.  The Freedom Charter states: 

	Every man and woman shall have the right to vote for and stand as a candidate for all bodies which make laws;

and: 

	The rights of people shall be the same, regardless of race, colour and sex.

And our Constitution, as we know, guarantees the same rights in our Bill of Rights.  

Again, does the practice match the theory?

Last year when I spoke about this, the hon Mr Bartlett - he seems to have left now - said that I was trying to enhance my own position, or words to that effect.  That is cheap politics of the worst kind and perhaps says more about the NP's attitude to women than all their fine sounding policies about gender equality.  Women will not be intimidated and silenced in that way, and I am sorry my sister the hon Faith Gasa is not here today, because she would have agreed with me whole-heartedly.

AN HON MEMBER:  We all agree with you!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you very much for that.  Furthermore, I am not launching a personal attack on anybody.  Please do not personalise it, but I want to state some hard facts.  In this Legislature, out of 85 members, 16 are women.  The Speaker and the Deputy Speaker are both men.  The Premier is a man.  All the MECs are men.  All the Party Leaders are men, except in the case of the ACDP with one member, but that does not count because one cannot lead oneself.  [LAUGHTER]  The Secretary and the Deputy Secretary ...

MRS J M DOWNS:  I would ask for that to be withdrawn.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  The Secretary and the Deputy Secretary are both men and the vast majority of the senior administrative staff are men.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  A point of order from Mr Rajbansi.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I want injury time.

MR A RAJBANSI:  By reference that is an aspersion on the Minority Front.  I am equal to 1 000 persons.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I claim injury time, Mr Speaker.  Now, of course, most of the typists are women, excellent women, but please do not always only put women in those positions.

I want to give you a further example of this Legislature.  At a recent workshop on the National Council of Provinces organised by us - so I am turning the finger to myself as well - we organised a workshop where every single guest speaker, every single speaker from our own Legislature, every single chairperson or convener of commissions, every single rapporteur from the commissions, without exception, were men....as if there were not women in this Legislature.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two more minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I turn my finger towards myself as well, the hon Mr Nel, and I said so.  We collectively made a mistake.  It was insensitive, it was arrogant and let us not repeat that mistake.

Do we have child care facilities in this Legislature, I raised the same question last year, for members and for staff?  What about people working here, attending sittings with small babies at home?  Now what does all of this say about our commitment as a Legislature to human rights, to women's rights, to workers' rights or for that matter to children's rights.  My own child is a neglected child, so I am turning my finger towards myself as well.

We should lead by example and cannot continue to pay lip service to fine sounding principles if we are not prepared to put them into practice.  So let us pledge to lead by example in future.

3.	PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP

The third issue I want to raise is peace and stability, but due to time constraints I think I have to summarise it a bit.  The Freedom Charter states:

	Peace and friendship among all our people shall be secured by upholding the equal rights, opportunities and status of all.

Our new Constitution devotes an entire chapter to co-operative governance.  We as members of this Legislature again should lead by example and spearhead the peace process.  If we do not, history will judge us very harshly.

Peace can only come about if we respect and uphold the rights of others, including the right to differ.  In other words, I am not saying we cannot differ.  That is our business, that is why we are here.  I differ a lot from many members of this Legislature, but it depends on how we differ, the manner in which we differ.  Where we can work together we work together.

4.	PIETERMARITZBURG/~ULUNDI~

Then finally, I want to turn to a contentious issue, the Pietermaritzburg/~Ulundi~ issue.  How much longer are we going to continue to split ourselves between two centres?  Over the past few years I have come to know and appreciate ~Ulundi~ for what it represents to this Province.  We in the ANC are committed to the welfare of the people of ~Ulundi~, as much as we are committed to the welfare of the people of Pietermaritzburg or Newcastle or any other place in this Province.  They are all our people and they are all our responsibility.  ~Ulundi~ must be developed, we have said so from day one, as the special rural town that it is, with a rich and diverse history, a haven for tourism.  But it is not a capital and it should not be the seat of the Legislature.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Now let us stop wasting time, energy and money.  Let us stop playing with the lives of our members and our staff, up and down like yoyos, either in planes or cars.  Touch wood, the fact that we have not lost somebody is a miracle.  In fact we did lose one member of staff very sadly between Durban and Pietermaritzburg.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you.  We need one seat of the Legislature and let us transform this Parliament into a truly democratic African institution.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Downs to address the House for 12 minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  If I may begin, Mr Speaker, by defending myself and my party from Mrs Cronje's comments.  I do not lead myself.  We have a full provincial structure and I want to tell you this, that in our national organisation 30% of our leaders are women without a quota system.

AN HON MEMBER:  What are the 70%?

MRS J M DOWNS:  I would like to actually touch on the budget seeing that this is a budget debate and I am sorry that Mr Zuma is not here because I was going ...

AN HON MEMBER:  The hon Mr Zuma.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I beg your pardon, the hon member Mr Zuma is not here because I was actually going to appeal to him to use his influence on behalf of this Province which he is a part of.

The Fiscal and Financial Commission recommended, based on old census figures, that we should get 19,6% of the budget, we got 19.  If we go in real terms on what the population of this Province really is, KwaZulu-Natal is looking really sick.  I want to give you some figures here.  The transfer average per person of population for all of the Provinces is 1 750.  KwaZulu-Natal's transfer average was 1 634.  The highest was the Northern Cape with 2 447 per person and the lowest was Gauteng with 1 505.  I think those figures speak for themselves.

The National Party has starved this Province historically and now the ANC are continuing to starve this Province of its development needs.  I appeal to them as the national ruling party, particularly the members in this Province, to go to your national members who are involved with allocating the transfers to the Province, and plead for more money for this Province because we desperately need it.

AN HON MEMBER:  There is no hurry in South Africa.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Okay.  I am glad the hon member made that comment.  He said there is no hurry in South Africa and that is another thing that I want to talk about.

If we have a look now at what the actual allocations are for health, welfare and education, which are the main consumers of this budget, the allocations are fair.  38% to education, 21% to health and 20% to welfare.  The problem that we are sitting with is that particularly for example in the education budget where 93% of the budget is being spent on salaries and this is an across the board problem in KwaZulu-Natal, we have to do some radical rethinking.

I am concerned that in this last year the portfolio committees have not particularly been involved in setting up this budget.  I am told that constitutionally and in practical terms the main function of this Legislature of us as individual members is to actually oversee the budget.  Basically what happens is every year we have been faced with a fait accompli on the table and we have got no say at all in how that budget is allocated.  I even tend to think, and I have it on good authority, that even the Cabinet members themselves were not presented with a budget until very late in the day.  They ended up rubber stamping it.  If that is not the tail wagging the dog then I do not know what is.  That is my concern.

I am concerned that we are already actually well into the preparation for next year's budget and I appeal to any of the chairmen of portfolio committees sitting here, do you know what the priorities are in those budgets because I do not think that you do, through no fault of your own but through departmental fudging?  That is a concern to me.

The other thing that I want to say as well is, that I was blessed to be able to attend a workshop on the budget.  At that workshop the members of IDASA told me that this White Book, that we received, is based on World War II budgeting principles.  The whole effect of producing a document like that, is to give as little information as possible, so that people would not know how much you were spending on tanks and guns and so on.

Now we are way out of World War II situations.  I think that it is time that departments and budgeting were transformed.  Here we can say that it is the Minister's fault, we can say that it is the fault of the portfolio committee chairman and so on, but I am not so sure that that is the problem.  I have heard portfolio committees asking questions time and time and time again about budgeting issues, policy issues, all sorts of other issues and time and time again not getting the answer or getting the answer late, or it just drops off the agenda eventually.

I for one as a concerned member of this Legislature who actually takes my responsibilities in the portfolio committee very seriously am quite frankly sick of it.  I think that we need to just send the departments a message starting with the Ministers, asking them to please crack the whip on their departments now and demand that they do what they are supposed to do.

A lot of rhetoric has gone out about this gravy train that we are sitting on and that is referring to members of this House.  In fact I believe that what the public are perceiving are not the members of this House because most of us have a will to work and we work very hard.  I think that this goes to the actual departments and I think there is a lot of gravy in the departments.

How many people in each department are putting in a full day's work, and working hard to earn their salary for the good of the Province?  I would suggest to you that it is a very small number.  The other thing, I was incensed, I cannot actually talk about this in strong enough terms.  When I attended a meeting on Friday a forensic auditor told me that a man who had been arrested for fraud, who is presently sitting in gaol, still has possession of his departmental car, cell phone and computer.  Nobody, because of some kind of paralysis in case it goes to a court case, nobody has gone and retrieved those objects.

So while we are shouting at National and saying you do not give us a lot of money and you do not give us enough money I think the onus is on this Government and these departments within this Government to tighten controls, to get their act together and to ask of their staff a good day's work.

I also heard from the same forensic auditor that there is a person who has been sitting in gaol for two years, who is still receiving a salary.  That is shocking.  That is not on.  I for one am going to be asking a lot of questions.  I am asking each one of my colleagues here to start actually putting your fist on the table a bit.  I know that it is difficult because you have to work within your own political parties, but if the onus is on us in the Legislature as individual members, we are the only ones that can do it, to say that we do not accept this.  It is not good enough and we want to see some action.

I want to end off by saying something.  Before I start, if there are any members of the press, I would like to ask you to please be sensitive.  I am using a personal circumstance to illustrate something in this country.

This weekend, a very close member of my family became another statistic on the crime statistics of rape.  She was added to the statistics.  I am sitting here like every other victim of a serious crime and of a violent crime in this Province and I know the way I feel.  I am angry, I feel helpless because there is nothing that I as an individual can do to put a stop to this.  As I was thinking about this, I was thinking how much more must it be for people who have lost somebody because of political in-fighting who have lost a child or a father or a mother, and how must it be for someone who has lost somebody because of a hijacking.  Something was taken from my relative this weekend that she can never ever get back, never.  Every victim of crime must feel this way.

Again I am asking, I am glad to see that the hon member Mr Zuma is here, because I am asking for the National Government to actually do something about crime now, to knuckle down, roll up their sleeves and get involved and actually do the job instead of talking about it.

I am also asking, along with another hon member that spoke before me today, that policing be devolved to provinces.  That is where it actually belongs and then someone like me who feels angry at having had her family violated by a crime actually has somewhere to go to get something done about this.  I think I would like to end off on that note.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs, good timing.  Next to speak will be the hon member Mr Powell who will address the House for 15 minutes.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members.  The KwaZulu-Natal budget for 1997 reflects the continued underfunding of this Province and the dangers of a budgetary process largely driven by the Central Government.  Speaker after speaker has highlighted the inadequacy of this budget, given the enormous backlog in basic service delivery to the disadvantaged communities in our Province.

We often hear speakers in this House refer to the "Cinderella" status of our Province which has some 25% of the population but continues to get an inadequate proportion of the National budget.

What does this mean in real terms to the people of this Province?  Plainly put, it means that the people of KwaZulu-Natal continue to pay the price for the fact that they choose to be somewhat different from the rest of South Africa.  They have continued a well established tradition, of voting against what often appears to be the prevailing political wisdom in South Africa, and continue to pay the price for a sense of political independence.

The IFP believes, that the first and primary task of any Government, is to establish the necessary levels of safety and security within which the lives and property of ordinary law abiding citizens are protected.  Social justice, greater equity and the amelioration of the living conditions of the poorest of the poor cannot be attained in anarchic conditions.  Basic law and order is a pre-requisite for the attainment of justice and greater equality and the Government is failing to deliver.  One can have law and order without justice but one cannot have justice without law and order.

Nowhere is the need for greater decentralisation of power more evident than in the field of safety and security.  The top-down process of budgetary allocation leaves the Provincial Government with no flexibility, a reality which was rather brutally brought home to me when I was recently in Cape Town for an NCOP Justice and Security Portfolio Committee meeting.  Senior members of the Safety and Security Department were briefing members on the budgetary process, when we were brazenly informed that MECs would be summoned, presented with the budget for them to rubber stamp.  Their words not mine.  I was left with the uncomfortable feeling that the last vestiges of the farce of joint competence in the field of Safety and Security had finally been dispensed with.

We are now being called to Cape Town merely to participate in a farce that provinces maintain any control over policing.  The budgetary allocation from this budget is restricted to merely paying the salaries for members of the civilian secretariat of safety and security, a responsibility which the National Government has rather cynically devolved to the provinces.  The entire SAPS budget for KwaZulu-Natal is totally driven from the centre and no amount of window dressing can conceal that fact.

During the same briefing, we were told that goals and priorities set by provincial policing structures would have to be radically changed, to bring them into line with budgetary allocations from Pretoria.  In other words, the ability of provinces to identify, for instance, attacks on vulnerable rural communities as a priority and set goals in this regard, would be meaningless unless big brother in Pretoria had allocated money for that area.

We have heard about the FCC in this debate.  The reality is that when it comes to provincial policing this does not even feature in the FCC process.

It is significant, that we have been informed, within the last few hours, that the long awaited Shubane Report on demands for the greater devolution of policing competencies by the nine MECs -which is being postponed I think now for the fourth time in Cape Town - while the Central Government grapples with the growing clamour for powers, to address the crisis of expectations and service delivery in the crucial area of crime prevention.

It is naive to believe that these demand will go away if they are ignored.  What constantly places them back on the agenda is the failure to deliver on the part of the Central Government.  It would be more palatable if the Central Government was enjoying unprecedented success in its fight against crime, the reality is somewhat different.

A recent newspaper editorial places this in perspective and I would like to quote from it:

	It is time the Government stopped making excuses.  It is time the Government got its priorities right.  Crimes and jobs.  These are the desperate and probably interlinked pleas of South Africans of every hue.  In both cases the Government has failed dismally, pathetically, criminally.  George Fivaz dithers.  Sidney Mufamadi whines.  A vacuous Dullah Omar mouths human rights platitudes and does a contemptible dance around fraud accused Allan Boesak while the criminal justice system steadily unravels.

These words are not mine, they are part of a growing wave of outrage at the failure of Government to deliver in the central area, which some editorials describe as a "National calamity".

These are indeed harsh words but indicative of the growing sense of outrage at the Government's performance in this area.  I have previously warned in this House, that in 1999 the electorate are going to place our performance, and here I speak of both the ANC and the IFP in Government at all levels, in the balance.  If we do not act with vigour and imagination to remedy these shortcomings we are going to be found wanting.

The crisis which crime poses to every aspect of the Government's attempts to address socio-economic problems will overwhelm every vision we have for a better South Africa.  The problem of crime is one which impacts on all aspects of social delivery.  To continue to withhold the means to deal with crime from Provincial Governments can only be described as criminal.  The time has come for Central Government to realise that it cannot ignore the potential capacity which provinces have for delivery in this area.

A narrow ideological pre-occupation with the centralisation of policing powers has two elements.  Firstly, a patent lack of trust in the commitment of Provincial Governments by the ANC led Central Government, to police within the Constitution and the framework legislation which has been adopted.

Secondly, a seeming inability, to realise that with reduced capacity and Government confidence comes reduced liability at the polls.  Provincial Government cannot be expected to shoulder the blame for non-delivery in this field while we are denied any ability to impact on correcting the problem.

The IFP does not believe, that the fight against crime and criminality, will be served by the continued insistence on a super-ministry, amalgamating more and more of the functions of crime prevention.  Political accountability is inevitably weakened and bloated and inefficient bureaucracy, which wastes valuable resources, is the inevitable result.

We were told in Cape Town that the Central Government has earmarked some R800 million in RDP funds to policing over the four year period.  Of this sum R100 million was for upgrading policing infrastructure such as police stations.  To date, only some R16 million has been spent, and projects for new police stations were limited, when seen against the enormous backlog which exists in providing services to formerly disadvantaged communities.  The spending of this money has been caught up in a bottleneck which results from the kind of obsessive centralisation which I have already referred to.

Mr Speaker, the IFP has constantly drawn attention to the fact that the new Constitution creates an even more centralised policing authority.  The functions allocated to the National Police Service, should be limited to international police co-operation, border control and the investigation of national crimes.  The primary crime combatting responsibility should reside with the provincial and municipal police forces who are more likely to be held accountable.  All else is meaningless, until policing authorities at these levels enjoy a degree of independence and can formulate policing policies suited to the needs of local communities.

The high levels of unemployment and social dislocation which characterise our society are placing untenable strains on our fledgling democracy.  The enemies of the people are not to be found within the ranks of opposing political parties, as some would have us believe, but rather in the socio-economic factors which are driving more and more South Africans into a spiral of crime and counter-crime.

The delicate fabric of our society, already weakened by years of abuse and a suspension of the rule of law, is stretched to breaking point.  To allow it to break will jeopardise that which we have achieved in this short space of time.  The time has come for the ANC led Central Government to recognise the Provincial Governments as valuable allies, which they could be, in the fight against crime.

We must put narrow ideological priorities aside and recognise that the war against crime is being lost.  It is being lost and in so doing our democracy is at risk.  We all hope, that the long awaited Shobane report on decentralisation, will be brave enough to break with the failed experiment of the past few years, and that innovative solutions will emerge, which allow the Provincial Governments to become much needed partners in defeating crime.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr E S Mchunu who will address the House for nine minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Hon Speaker and colleagues...

INKOSI K S MATHABA:  A point of order.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we hear the point of order from Inkosi Mathaba?

INKOSI K S MATHABA:  Could the hon member take his seat?  He is debating where the seat does not belong to him.  He must take his seat.

MR W U NEL:  Hey Mathaba, you are not in charge here.  There is a Speaker in charge.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I am calling upon the hon member Mr Mchunu to continue.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Mr Speaker and hon colleagues.  I will focus mainly on ANC policy on rural areas.  Some opponents and critics of the new dispensation in the country say that the new dispensation has not worked, or rather it has not delivered.  All of them though, including all of us here, do acknowledge that remarkable changes for the better are setting in.  At worse they accept that the direction in which things have moved since April 1994 is towards a better future for all, including people in rural areas.

The word "delivery" itself and of course other words like "accountability and responsible Government" are all new in our political discussions in the country.  All these words and concepts have come with the new dispensation.

You will agree with me though, that there is still a long way to go.  We are not yet at our best, particularly in regard to the situation in rural areas, both on what is called tribal land and on farms.  Let me indicate just two important principles, that I think, should guide us at different levels of Government, as we develop policy or as we develop rural policy and initiatives.

One of these principles is to ensure that we normalise the situation there, so that nobody gets threatened as a result of their political choices.  I am saying this because to a large extent it does affect whatever policy and whatever initiatives to develop rural communities.  It does retard progress in that regard.

I believe that nobody in any of the rural communities, or in rural areas, should actually be pushed to accept that freedom of choice in as far as political organisation is concerned, is essential to a climate which is conducive to development.

The second principle is that we need to entrench, particularly in these areas, individual rights and a willingness to add personal integrity and respect of each person in these areas.  Now if you compare the rights that are enjoyed by people in rural areas with those that are enjoyed by people in urban areas, you will find that there is a great discrepancy and there is injustice, in as far as this is concerned and this is unfair, we must do away with it.

One example of an area or an aspect of life which we have to improve on, is on the question of land.  We must point out that we have a great challenge in as far land policy is concerned.  But I must point out immediately that we are going to have to move fast because of the situation.  Life in the 21st Century is not going to be rosy for rural communities, unless land policy is shaped equitably in accordance with:

1.	Needs for development in rural communities; and
2.	Needs of each person or community who depend on land to earn a living.


TRANSLATION:  These two things are very important Mr Speaker, because if we continue with the present system which exists regarding the policy of land, the ownership of land.  One discovers that most of the time the present system that exists actually prevents development.

Secondly, it does happen that if you happen to be a person who depends very much for your livelihood on the land, and you depend on the land for your survival, you will find that because you do not have land you cannot get the assistance from those people who should be of assistance.  Thus it happens that development is prevented and a situation which would exist if we were able to rectify the system of land and turn it into a system which would assist individuals, especially those who are unemployed.  T/E


On education for instance, we need to improve on our assistance in regard to school buildings for rural communities.  We need assistance in as far as finance is concerned, we need the assistance on planning and we also need assistance on maintenance of buildings.

TRANSLATION:  You see there are schools which have been in existence for 15 or 20 years but you find in the rural areas that the school is still being built.  I am talking about schools that were started 15 years ago.  These are not schools that you might think are the same size as this building that we are in, but it is schools that you find that as a result of a lack of guidance for those people who are responsible for this.

You find that at the time when the school is finished after 5 or 6 classrooms have been built the one that you started with, is collapsing.  This problem is caused by a lack of guidance.  It is because there is no guidance that reaches there to the very lower levels regarding schools.  T/E

In other words, we do not necessarily need assistance as far as finance is concerned but we also need assistance as far as planning is concerned.  We also need assistance as far as maintenance of buildings is concerned.


TRANSLATION: If you go to schools more especially those schools that are in the rural areas, you find that the windows are broken.  You do not need a lot of money from the Government in order to enable you to protect a school which is there in the community.  This is the type of aid that should filter right down to those people in order to be able to assist our people in the rural areas so that they know how schools should be administered. T/E

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  The second area has to do with Local Government in rural areas.  The geographical size of our rural councils or Local Government Councils is untenable.  It is unwieldy and also the size of those Governments numerically is unwieldy.

TRANSLATION: These governments that we have in the rural areas at present, some of them are twice and some of them are three times the size of we as the Government of the Province.  You find that when it is necessary for them to hold a meeting one government gets together, it becomes an assembly that would fill this room.

It becomes very difficult for these people who are packed into this room, to do anything when it comes to the responsibility of changing the situation and to better the lives of people in the rural areas.  If you are just going to pick up a lot of people and it becomes a conference, we must change this and make the situation regarding these governments better, make them smaller in size so that they will be better able to deliver the things that we want them to deliver. T/E

We have a challenge as far as this is concerned, and in dealing with this question in the future, we should put aside our political interests and actually concentrate on good governance at that level, and a Government that can actually deliver.

The next area has to do with the Peace Committee of the Province.  I am generally critical of the Peace Committee.  Well, if there was any performance on the side of the Peace Committee I would talk about it, but I think there is none so far.

I mean there is a lot of violence ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR E S MCHUNU:  The Peace Committee in the Province was meant to assist in ending violence where there is violence in the Province.  I think to a large extent it has become an end on its own rather than the means to an end.  For the past few months I have not heard anything about it, except that there is a budget that is allocated to it.  That is a problem and it is also a challenge to those who are serving in that particular Committee and also a challenge to us.

To a large extent violence has shifted to a number of areas in rural areas but there is no intervention on the part of the Peace Committee.  I think we must improve on that.

Now on the whole, when we compare a rural and an urban community, it must have nothing to do with rights enjoyed by any of these and the integrity of individuals, in any of these communities.  In other words, what we must do when we go for budgeting next time, we should try to be very sensitive to the needs of rural communities.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is over.

MR E S MCHUNU:  We should aim at bridging the inequalities between our communities.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I wish to now call upon the hon member Mr Ntombela to address the House for 15 minutes.

THE SPEAKER: [The hon Member you have two minutes left].


TRANSLATION:  I must thank you Mr Chairman, and your hon House.  My standing up at the end, I think that our meeting here today is very important because we have come to talk about money which must be used in our Province which is poor, which has long suffered under repression.  And has also suffered because of violence.

But there are great efforts as Nxamalala has already mentioned this morning.  The hon Mr Zuma spoke about the fact that there are great efforts which started last year, which efforts have been made by the IFP and the ANC that there should be a burying of the hatchet.  And that there should not be areas which are known as no-go areas.

I think Mr Speaker, I need to say thank you very much for his speech where he said that there was going to be on-going talks between the ANC and the IFP, which talks would centre on peace in this Province of ours, KwaZulu, and in this Government of ours of KwaZulu.

I think that I heard the hon Nxamalala talking and saying the President should have gone to Stofela.  Certain persons went back to their old positions, that of blocking buses which were going to Stoffelton where the President of the country was going.

I think Mr Speaker, should remember that many years ago when certain incidents such as these happened, it was all too easy to blame the IFP and say that it was the IFP that had blocked the buses.  I do not know as regards these buses that were going to Stoffelton, who blocked them.  Perhaps Mr Chairman, the diviners when they divine they will divine and say who blocked them, because today the IFP's name has not been mentioned in this regard.

Mr Speaker, it is a truth which cannot be denied that the ANC has its own bullocks and that when they kick out people they clap hands.  Today Holomisa, the calf of Mr Zuma and the ANC.  I think that now that there is largely peace between the IFP and the ANC, the ANC needs to sit down and have a heart to heart talk with the IFP, and we need to hear each other carefully.

They must be careful of this.  They must prevent the situation that when their young calves are fighting they must not come and affect us with their fighting because that will take us back to where we came from.  Because we will never allow that, that is for the ANC to fail to control their people.  The ANC must learn this, that the wealth of this country that we are talking about today will not be visible and work for the people.

How long must the people go hungry, how long must the people not have houses, not have employment, but yet the members of this Parliament will be getting paid.  But the majority of people who are fighting will be affected by the fighting of the bulldogs of the ANC.  Meanwhile they will continue to get paid, these people will not be paid.

Mr Speaker, it is necessary that when we speak, I think that we must speak the truth as it is and that is that brother Holomisa belongs to the ANC, and we must remind Nxamalala, that when we are speaking the truth as adults we need to remember and to understand this, that the President came out openly and said that there should be reconciliation and there should be a revelation of the truth.

It still bothers me as an adult that when Holomisa comes out with the truth why is he being kicked, because he was spilling the beans?  What was Mandela referring to, which parties was he referring to when he said that the beans should be spilt?  Which parties must spill the beans if those people from the ANC who spill the beans get kicked, why are they being kicked?

Mr Speaker, I do not want to dig up old bones and old sores but I am an old man.  If we want this country and this Government of KwaZulu to return to its rightful place, it should be remembered that more than ten years ago, in fact more than fifteen years ago, while we still had our Government in KwaZulu, a Government which was led by the Prince of KwaPindangene, a Government that was respected, that Government built schools and everything else.  Everything was razed to the ground by fire.

Nothing will be there because the intention was that it should be said that the president of the party which is the IFP was not able to lead, these are truths.  Today we are talking about a budget, we are saying that the economy must be boosted, we are saying that development must be encouraged in order to help the people.  We have forgotten that there were people who pulled down that which was the development of the people who are black, they pulled down the development of the poor, of the unemployed people.  That was all pulled down every day.

Sir, let me continue and say as an old man, if I say I am an old man I am not lying, I am an old man.  It will be remembered that if it is said that the beans must be spilt and the truth must be told, I am now referring to Holomisa, it became apparent that the killing of brother Mxenge and his wife, it will be remembered that the IFP was accused of killing these people.  As a result of this there was violence, people died because it was said it was the IFP that had killed Mxenge.

Today the ANC has not come out into the open and said sorry to the IFP, we are sorry.  Nxamalala, I am saying this to you, you who are a man among men.  I am saying apologise to the IFP and say it was not the IFP, because the killers have come forward, they have now been exposed, we now know who they are.  As I speak they are where they are.  They need to spill the beans, to tell the truth as regards who the people are who killed Mxenge and his wife.

I am not only talking about them, there are a lot of people who died and yet it was said that they were killed by the IFP.  The ANC does not now come out into the open and write it in the newspapers, these newspapers that they write in.  They did not go to the radio and tell the media that no, we are sorry Buthelezi, that was not the truth, that was just lies that we were creating.  The name of the IFP was besmirched from that day until this day.  It is still being besmirched even today.  Mr Speaker, I must say this, I do not want to speak about David Ntombela because the truth will become apparent just as the private parts of a goat are apparent, just as the truth about Mxenge has become apparent.

In my case too, just as you are shouting there across the room, you may continue to shout but the truth will come out about who is responsible for the on-going war that is killing the people of this Province, because today it has become apparent, that he who spilt the beans and told the truth, that is Holomisa, was kicked with the kick of a donkey.

He is coming back here.  I am reiterating to the ANC that they must be careful that if this disease comes here they must deal with it, and this disease must not affect the IFP.  Because we will not permit that, because that will mean that violence is being started by the ANC.

Mr Speaker, we are talking today about important people which we advised in 1994 to vote and furthermore, to vote for our parties.  We spoke all the necessary words, we said people we will build you houses, we said some will be allowed to give birth for free.  I wonder where the men have gone.  Free education was also something that was bandied about by the ANC.

Today people do not have houses.  If we are talking about this thing, the budget, people are asking what money is this that was being talked about, if the money is not going to build houses.  Today people do not have jobs.  Mr Speaker, and your hon House, people do not have jobs.

From that there are people who are expecting that the factories are going to leave.  People will become unemployed so that people will be put into a vicegrip and people will say go and burn the houses of the people, and they go round with no money, and no jobs.  No one who is employed Mr Speaker, gets involved in violence.  No one who is employed leaves his employment and goes and pick-pockets people, or goes to burn somebody's house.

The nullifying of jobs, that is the cause of the unrest and the violence in this country.  Sir, let me say again that the factories here at Imbali, the chip factories for example, they have all been closed, different firms have been closed.  I do not know how the people are going to survive, without employment.

There was this thing that came up, people were surviving for themselves, trying to eke out a living, doing their own thing in the casinos, and then it was said that the casinos should be closed, Rajbansi is telling the truth.  Then the casinos were closed.  But if I say go out of here and go to the roads, go to the pavements, the pavements are full of tables on all the roads until you get right down there because the ANC says that those people voted for it.

In town it is the same.  In Durban, in Johannesburg it is the same on all the roads.  Here in Pietermaritzburg you cannot even walk, it is full of tables and yet people who employed a lot of other people in the casinos were told to close down and not to continue working.  I say today I, David Ntombela, this House should support this that the casinos should be opened and each individual should battle in whatever way he can battle for himself in order to get money.

In that way people will stop going around picking other people's pockets, they will stop going around robbing people.  Sir, and this hon House of yours.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has two minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA:  I hear them sir, making a noise there on the far side.  That is all right.  Let them make their noise.  That does not mean anything.  But the one and only truth is that we need people to vote for us in 1999.  When somebody is unemployed, I do not know how you are going to get hold of them and fetch them and tell them to come and vote for you whilst they are unemployed.

I say let jobs be created, let people be employed, let there be no one who says they are unemployed.  Let there be political freedom, let a person go where he wants to go.  But people should not be intimidated and buses hijacked, that is buses that are going to the rallies, people should not be killed.  Let us make this country governable.  I am supporting our Premier, Dr Ngubane and his Cabinet.  They are men indeed that should be Ministers.  It should not be that somebody who is not a Minister just wants to become a Minister because he wants to better somebody else.  Let our Cabinet continue and work in truth and create jobs, let the people be employed, we should not see anybody who is unemployed.

With those words sir, as an old man, let the men hear that I say thank you.  T/E

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That was our last speaker for today.  I have been informed by the Whips that we are now going to adjourn the House till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  The House adjourns till 9 o'clock tomorrow.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17:10 UNTIL
	9:00 ON TUESDAY, 6 MAY 1997

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - SECOND SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 6 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:04 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:
 
2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I make an enquiry about item No 3.  There was a vacancy in the House and according to the law that vacancy must be filled immediately on the side of the African National Congress.  Have we had any swearing in of new members?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, thank you for that enquiry but as you may well be aware, the Speaker is off sick and I was just about to announce that.  He is likely to be coming in today, but he is still very sick.  I am not as yet aware of what has happened with that issue, but I will sort it out with the Secretariat and ensure that it is addressed as a matter of urgency.  Thank you for raising it.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, does the member want to take the space for his party?  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  Have you asked for his number?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I think within the terms of the Constitution transferability is possible.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

As I have indicated already, the Speaker is still not very well.  He has not arrived this morning but he has sent a message that he is going to the doctor and is likely to arrive any time today if he is better.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

There are no announcements by the Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a notice of an inaugural meeting for the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, has been tabled on all the members' desks.  The meeting is at the conclusion of business today at 4 o'clock.  It takes place in the chamber and all members are urged to attend that meeting.  There is a draft Constitution attached to the notice which members can also study in the course of the day.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  Hopefully members will really attend this meeting.  It has been a very long time that we have been functioning without an official branch of the CPA and things have not been going as they are expected to go.  So please if members could ensure that they attend.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  I shall be moving the following resolution at the next sitting day of the House:

	This House assembled at Pietermaritzburg, pays its tribute to the City for awarding its FREEDOM to President Mandela and to MOHANDAS KARAMCHAND GANDHI, the 20th Century's apostle of peace.

	This House further records the historical fact that in this very Legislature Building completed in 1889, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, in the year 1894 and at the age of 25 presented the PETITION on Parliamentary Franchise opposing race discrimination and arguing that in terms of the Charter for the Colony of Natal all the subjects of the British Monarch were fully entitled to complete equality in regard to voting rights.

	The Gandhi-Petition bearing 10 000 signatures was historically the first voice of protest against race discrimination heard in the Parliament of this region, in this House, the then Colonial Parliament.  In recording this fact, we pay our tribute to the memory of Mahatma Gandhi and his valuable contribution to the liberation History of our country.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I make an appeal through you that that motion be adopted unopposed and that we invite Gandhi's grandson to be honoured here.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That we invite who, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mahatma Gandhi's grandson.  Like the Gauteng Legislature has done.  They have stolen the march on us.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Is the suggestion that the motion be adopted unopposed?  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I listened to the motion and from a personal point of view I have not the slightest problem with that motion, but I really cannot commit my caucus to adopt something unless they have seen it.

I think it is very unfair to do that, but if Mr Meer wanted to move that tomorrow and I am sure that my caucus would agree to it, we could then deal with it tomorrow.  I do not see the urgency today and I cannot accept something just like that, something which we have never seen.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, I am inclined to agree with that.  Even my caucus has not had the benefit of discussing this or making a decision on whether we should invite somebody else here, although in principle I accept it completely and I see Gauteng has done so.  So what I would suggest that if, with the concurrence of the Whips, if this matter could be tabled again tomorrow.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I hope that the Whips will deal with the matter and advise accordingly but as of now the motion is not an unopposed motion and therefore falls away.  Mrs Cronje.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, all that has happened is that the member has given notice of a motion and he said that he would move it tomorrow.  It does not fall away.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Okay, thank you.  Sorry for saying that but I was saying for today's orders it therefore does not become part of it.  Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to move a motion and clearly I have been thinking along the same lines as my respected hon colleague Mr Meer, but it is slightly different so I would like to still move it.

	That this House congratulates and commends the PIETERMARITZBURG-MSUNDUZI TRANSITIONAL LOCAL COUNCIL for taking the initiative to confer Civic Honours on some of its most outstanding citizens, namely Ryke E Boeke, Dasarath Bundhoo, Joy Roberts, Dr Imtiaz I Sooliman, Dr Mohamed M Motala, Professor Cyril L S Nyembezi, Mrs Else Schreiner and in particular for conferring the Freedom of the Municipality of Pietermaritzburg-Msunduzi on:

	PRESIDENT NELSON R MANDELA, and I quote:

		In recognition of his distinguished record of service to all the people of South Africa, and his particularly close association with Pietermaritzburg.

	And posthumously, on MOHANDAS KARAMCHAND GANDHI, and I quote:

		In a spirit of reconciliation and in recognition of the great contribution his philosophy of truth and non-violence made in the building of the new South African nation.

	And to enter their names in the Register of Honourary Freeman of this city.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Perhaps we can find a way of combining our two motions for unanimous adoption.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you for that.  Any further motions or Bills?  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That in the light of the serious unemployment that has been caused by the closure of casinos this House resolves to request the hon Premier to promulgate regulations for the immediate licensing of site and route operators on the basis of free economic enterprise and also to ensure that the necessary steps are taken to receive applications for the five casinos and also for the Board to make arrangements for the granting of temporary licences to the successful applicants for the casino licence so that those who have lost their jobs could be re-employed.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Any further Bills or motions?  That brings us to the end of item 7, notices of Bills or motions.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

RESUMED DEBATE ON THE BUDGET: KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will call upon Mrs Galea to be the first to speak on this debate for eight minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, hon members.  The overall budget increased by 8,3%, in nominal terms, which translates into a deficit if we use the 8,5% inflation as per budget review.  

The major components of the budget are education and culture, health and welfare.  These three account for 79,5% of the total budget.

How many hon members have seen the White Paper on budget reform?  I have not.  This was to be made available for public and provincial comment.  Departments were to define goals, say what they wanted to achieve, to identify all activities, review programmes, to prioritise and to do an explanatory memorandum.

Of concern is that next year's budget is already being drawn up and very little in the format has been changed to move forward towards multi-year planning instead of the normal incremental ad hoc annual approach.  We must reprioritise expenditure to achieve efficiency and ensure that staff are being fully utilised, and make efficient use of public facilities.

Yesterday the hon Minister Zuma, mentioned that we are three years down the line and that all political parties have shown their commitment to good governance.  Peace and stability were also mentioned, and the meetings have then taken place between the leadership of the ANC and the IFP to bring about peace.  

I know that most of the violence is said to be mainly between the same two parties, but to achieve peace in this Province, once again I say we must include all political players.  The National Party, the DP, the ACDP, the Minority Front and PAC.

If we want it to work, all the parties must be seen to be working together in all areas, starting with the hot spots.  We must be seen to be speaking with one voice, that being for peace and the end to violence in this beautiful Province of ours.  We must be seen to be working for all the people who have suffered through violence and also undertake development programmes for those who are in need of basic services.  When we use funds (be it from Central Government or from Province) to assist our people re-establish themselves it must not be seen as an ANC or IFP project only.

The funds come from the Government's revenue collected through income tax, VAT etc to which we all have contributed.  Overseas funding should also be distributed on an equitable basis in areas and not such as is done on the South Coast area of Shobashobane, where ANC homes were rebuilt and not those of the IFP in the IFP area, which had been destroyed prior to the sad Christmas morning.  Those two sides must be treated evenly as also those who are not already aligned to those parties.

Much was said about the R100 million which has been allocated to our Province for peace initiatives.  We should have a multi-party committee that would look at this, not just the two main parties in KwaZulu-Natal.

Whilst our multi-party committee is talking to the communities, we should also make them aware of Aids by wearing the red Aids ribbon, and to support the initiatives of the interdepartmental committees on HIV and Aids.  In March the hon member Mrs Abbie Mchunu and myself, from the Welfare Portfolio Committee, were elected to represent the Portfolio Committee on the department's interdepartmental Aids task group.  To date we have not been informed of any meetings.

We attended the National HIV and Aids travelling display in Richards Bay.  We were told that sex is like sweets to the young people.  This is so sad.  So many people think that Aids will not touch their lives.  More education is needed on prevention, condoms, care, welfare assistance, counselling and support.

Safety and Security.  Of concern again is that our Minister of Safety and Security, ~Inkosi~ ~Ngubane~, also holds the portfolio of the Minister of Traditional Affairs and Environmental Affairs.  Unfortunately the Minister is not here, but I have great respect for him and for the manner in which he conducts the committees, but as I had said to our retired Premier, Dr Frank Mdlalose, also when he had two portfolios, I feel that Safety and Security should be a portfolio on its own and have its own Ministry.

The rights of law abiding citizens are being violated daily.  There is probably not one hon member here who has not got a friend, relative or acquaintance who has not been touched by the chronic situation of evil surrounding us, which has made us virtual prisoners in our own homes and places of work.

Unless we drastically reduce crime, we will not become an economically viable Province.  In 1996 the monthly murder average was 553 murders per month (which is 18 per day).  In January 1997 1 314 children under 18 were raped and those are just cases that were reported, and so it goes on and on.

The police must receive specialised training in effective ways of dealing with the victims of violent crime, and in particular with women and children victims as our country is subjected to the worst crime rate ever.  The political and operational heads of Safety and Security, have not come to terms as to where the line is drawn in regard to their respective responsibilities.

One can only imagine what the police services are experiencing with the present uncertainty and animosity.  The National Party is seriously concerned at the obvious fact that the Safety and Security Minister, Sydney Mufamadi and the South African Police Commissioner, George Fivaz, find themselves at loggerheads.  What we need is the immediate action of President Mandela in order to resolve this very serious situation in the interest of policing and proper maintenance of law and order.

Yesterday mention was made of the Peace Committee.  Yes, 44% of the budget was spent on personnel.  At present the position of director has not been finalised.  Applications and applicants will only be short listed this month.

Our displacee's programme in management in Maqonqgo and Table Mountain areas are suffering, but I believe once we have a director the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Peace Committee will once again show their worth.  It is also up to the members of this Parliament who are on that Committee to make it work.  We have time and time had problems with having a quorum and let us hope from now on we are going to take this Peace Committee seriously.

With the 1999 elections ahead I believe the Peace Committee will play an important part.  The community policing forums and Peace Committees in all areas should work together.  The community policing forums aim to establish an active and equal partnership between the police and public, through which crime and community safety issues can jointly be determined and solutions designed and implemented.  We should all support these initiatives.

At the moment there are 170 community policing fora and 74 sub-fora.  80% of the area boards in KwaZulu-Natal have been established.  A booklet highlighting the community policing weaknesses, problems, successes and potential for growth has been produced and it will soon be available in Zulu.  I do not know whether all members have it, but if you would like to see me afterwards there is a number where you can get copies.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, during our sitting in ~Ulundi~ we were given the South African Police Service KwaZulu-Natal Annual Report 1996.  On page 56 it shows the top 40 priority stations in KwaZulu-Natal and I would suggest or recommend that the multi-party committee start by visiting these areas to bring peace back into our areas.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon Dr Sutcliffe for nine minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I rise to talk, broadly speaking, about some of the elements that should go into the making up of a budget.  What this budget represents is in fact an advance on previous budgets and indeed on any budget that South Africa has in fact had.  There are four elements.  If we look at many of the African development plans that emerged in the post-colonial context one found that there were generally a number of elements.  One of the difficulties was how they implemented those elements, but I want to focus on each of those in turn.

The first is the idea of progress, because this budget represents an attempt to make sure there is real concrete material progress in our country.  Progress is not something that we should just deal with in a fairly glib way.  Progress means that we are not simply imitating past practices, but we are beginning to put in motion new practices, in which we can take things forward.  It is progress certainly, that at a national level, there is a recognition that provinces are really the major implementors of that National budget and this budget represents a majority of the National budget.  In fact the majority of the funds are being spent in provinces.

Secondly, that there is an innovation in the sense that lump sums are provided to provinces, which gives the discretion to provinces to start saying this is where we believe money should be spent.  So it is progress at a National level and we are finding that there is major progress.  Who would have thought five years ago that an ANC led Government of National Unity, including the IFP as one of its partners, would at National level be arguing that in fact provinces should be provided with such large discretion in how they in fact utilise their funds.  It gives us lots of responsibilities though.

There is much more money.  The issue of reprioritisation is an important issue that is contained in this budget.  We must there commend the Premier for arguing that we need to begin to reprioritise our issues in this Province.  It is scandalous that money has been previously available in budgets, for example for drought relief, and yet you go into rural communities and ask rural small scale farmers what assistance have they got and they will tell you they have got none.  Now we can begin to say if drought relief is a key issue where does that get targeted, how does it get targeted and assist the Ministry of Agriculture to ensure that they can focus on that.  In areas that we move, in rural areas where there are real problems in access, we can begin to ensure that the Department of Transport now is ensuring that communities are given access.

So the issue of reprioritisation then is an aspect of progress and it is something that we collectively must ensure that we are adopting.  The fact that this budget is also allowing us to begin to bring in innovations and technologies to solve the problems of our Province is very important.  Whereas, in the past we would simply say, well, the problem in rural agriculture let us say, is we do not have enough extension offices.  This year's budget, as the Department of Agriculture have told us, in fact is one that they are beginning to build up an information technology base, so that a person sitting out in Nkandla can in fact get access to expertise based in Cedara or based at the University of Natal, Pietermaritzburg or the University of Zululand.

So this budget does represent an idea of progress.  It is a progress on what we had last year and in that sense we must recognise it.  But progress cannot be at all costs.  We cannot simply say that we are doing things in a new way with no rules, no ways in which we need to get accountability.  That is why the second idea is important.  There has to be an idea of responsibility built into this budget because we are responsible ultimately as the Legislature, to ensure that those monies are spent correctly, that those monies are reprioritised properly, that those monies in fact do not move from being discretionary funds into a way in which there is either no expenditure or expenditure in fact is quite loose.  In that sense MECs do have that political responsibility that they need to begin to take much more charge than they do.  

I must note as a matter of concern, that broadly speaking senior management do not seem to have that responsibility and commitment to really be doing things differently, doing things in a new way.  We need to encourage them on that new path.  The fact that there seems to be more attention placed on whether or not they are getting new Mercedes-Benzes and what salary levels and what turf they in fact control, rather than actually focusing on the needs of our Province.

So the second issue that this budget is representing and certainly merging out of the Finance Committee, is that we need to take responsibility, the idea of responsibility begins to be an important element.

The third issue that a budget should in fact represent, is ways in which dynamic communities are created in our Province.  Communities, not political communities or political party led communities, but dynamic communities in our Province.  Here the peace process is one of those things.  I get very disturbed when I hear hon members of the National Party, simply reflecting on the Premier and the MEC for Economic Affairs, and think now this is going to become a slush fund for the IFP and ANC to use.  Those monies are explicitly for communities, communities that have been ravaged by violence and a community is a community, because we know the majority of people involved in that violence, often those pulling triggers in fact had bosses behind them.

MR V A VOLKER:  You should get your facts right.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  SR numbers, and people behind them.  So what we are saying is that it is to build dynamic communities.  We should not be talking in terms of how much the ANC and IFP is getting.  If it turns out that more so-called ANC inclined people or so-called IFP inclined people have had their houses ruined, then they should be getting more money, but we will not be asking them what cards they were carrying first, we argue rather what initiatives can we have to rebuild those communities.

So building dynamic communities is what we are about and collectively we should be saying, it does not matter where it is we should have the confidence in each other, that we can move to any part of this Province and build those communities.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, could I ask the member a question?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Just give the member a chance.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Is this a point of order?

MR W U NEL:  Would the member take a question, Mr Speaker?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  If I have time at the end.  So building dynamic communities is what we are about and we should have the collective confidence here that I do not know, I do not care if the hon V V Mvelase over there is involved in an initiative to build communities to assist.  I should have the confidence that as long as the correct procedures are followed, they were not creating trust funds that he is controlling, that we have that confidence in each other, which we can collectively discuss here and we will build those communities because ultimately it is the most disadvantaged, it is the most oppressed that were affected by apartheid.  Unless we begin to get that into our heads and these hon parties to my left, some of them here, need to get it into their heads that that is what our objective is.  It is not to continue these divisions of the past.

The fourth aspect that a budget should contain is to build our nation.  Nation building is a key aspect of a budget.  It begins to say that we are people from all walks of life and as we build this khaki coloured nation of ours which is what it will become, a nation where our children will not refer to race in the future.  We need to begin to ensure that this budget reflects that nation building, when we are not talking about some people as being subjects of His Majesty the King.  Some people in fact from this community, as if that community has specific geographical bounds.  We are all found in this Province, whether we like it or not, and we have got to live with that.  We have got to begin to build that nation of ours of which we are part of.

I would just throw in a little anecdote here of my little nephew who is five years old, came home from school the other day.

MR V A VOLKER:  Your time is up.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  And said as he came home ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You have one more minute.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you.  In this nation building he said to his mother, "I want to say that, you know, Zulus are much more clever than human beings", and his mother said, "What are you talking about?"  He says, "No, you know, I was at school the other day and talking to one of my classmates who happens to be Zulu, he was telling me he does not go to shops and buy fishing rods and things like that, he says he just goes and breaks pieces of cane and he fishes with them and we were both comparing how many fish we caught", and he said, "You know, he is much more clever than I am because with this rod that cost him nothing, he caught three fish yesterday and I only caught one".

Now our nation building is where we need to go and we need to ensure that in ten years time we are not even seeing our children grow up in that way.  So progress, responsibility, dynamic communities and nation building is where we need to go.  Thank you, sir.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will the hon member take a question about 165 000 rod fishermen who are restricted?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Any day.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, he has got no time unfortunately.  Thank you.  Mr Konigkramer, you have 15 minutes.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I should like to begin my address with a few remarks about the press.  On a personal level, I must say that I have found it distressing, that increasing numbers of members of this House have launched tirades against the press.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  To me it is reminiscent of the dark days of apartheid rule when the so-called English press was the whipping boy of the National Party regime.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I should like to caution against the tendency of bashing the press.  There are two reasons for this.  Firstly, it has been my experience that invariably when there are attacks on the press there are two reasons for it.

Firstly, it often is a cover for failed policies and personal shortcomings.  Secondly, and this is more serious, I think history has shown that attacks on the press are invariably a reliable barometer for nascent authoritarianism.

Another simple fact which many people fail to understand is that newspapers are privately owned businesses, and like all businesses, the pursuit of profit is the primary objective.  We on this side of the House have no problem with that.  We do not think that profit is a dirty word.  In fact it is the very essence of self-fulfilment and ultimately of progress.

I trust, having listened to some of the members, that there is nobody in this House that would seriously advocate State ownership of the press.  The last thing we need in our country right now is another Neues Deutschland.

It is, of course necessary and desirable to have codes of conduct for newspapers, but these must be voluntary and they must be policed by the industry itself.  At the end of the day, however, you cannot run a good newspaper unless it makes profits.  In a very real sense the pursuit of profit is the best guarantor of good newspapers.  Remember also, that nobody is forced to buy a newspaper.  If people do not like what they read they will simply exercise the most powerful weapon of dissent and that is they will not buy it.

Lastly, on this issue I should like to end my comments with a personal observation about newspapers in our country.  Without wishing to offend, I believe that history will show that the quality of newspapers in this country have shown a steady decline since the retirement of Mr Layton Slater as Chairman of the Argus company.  From the moment he left one senior journalist after the other left the press.  Editorial departments were treated with disdain, by I believe lesser men, who had no understanding of the ethos of good journalism.  In my judgment, the standard of journalism has never again reached the heights that it had under Layton Slater.

I should now like to come to the issue of crime.  Crime is without doubt the biggest enemy of progress and stability in our country.  Unless it is brought under control this country will enter a long period of decline and everybody will suffer.  We are already at the stage where perceptive and important players in the international community are beginning to lose faith in our ability to control crime.  Their scepticism will ultimately lead to the withdrawal of investments and without investment there can be no significant growth in our economy.  If the economy does not grow significantly the ranks of the unemployed will be swelled and we as the people will ultimately lose faith in ourselves.

I would suggest that that process is already afoot.  At one level there is a flight of skills which I think is a very serious matter.  Particularly to my colleagues in the African National Congress, I would like to suggest that they carefully consider the implications of destabilising or taking actions which result in people losing faith in the country.  In a very real sense what is happening is those people in this country, that really enjoyed the fruits of apartheid, the people that were well educated, that were educated at State expense, those are the people that are leaving the country.  So in a very real sense it is foreign countries that are going to enjoy the fruits of apartheid and we should not allow that to happen.

I should like to commend the President for the remarks he made in England, when he visited England, where he encouraged people to come back, but I think it needs to go beyond appeals like, I think we need too actively as a country embark on a campaign to get those people that have left to come back because I believe they are needed.

On that note, on the issue of crime, I had occasion to visit Botswana, and it really is quite an incredible thing to live in a country where there is no violence and where there is no threat of violence and where there is no intimidation.  It really is quite an unbelievable experience.  Having come back to South Africa, I was really struck by a black policeman who, having noted my ND numberplate said to me, "Welcome.  Welcome, to gangster land".  I thought that was a very perceptive comment because he knows what goes on on the other side of the border.  Unless we begin to do serious things about this, I really think that we are heading for very, very serious trouble.

Having said that, those few remarks about the issue of crime, I think ultimately the only remedy for the situation in the short term, is that policing powers must be devolved to the provinces, and from the provinces they must be devolved to the local authorities.  Unless that happens there is really, in my judgment, no hope.

There is a tendency in this country and in this current majority Government to behave exactly as the previous Government did.  Let me give you some examples.

Why do we persist with things like the South African National Defence Force?  Why do we have to use the word "National?"  It is exactly as the previous Government did.  Why do we have to have a National Council of Provinces?  If it is a Council of Provinces it is a Council of Provinces.  Why add the word "National"?  Because it indicates that there is a willingness to centralise power.

Again addressing myself to my colleagues in the ANC.  They have a slogan which says, "The people shall govern".  Well, why do you not let them govern?  The people do not want Pretoria to govern, they want to govern themselves and the only way to do that is to decentralise power, and that does not in any way suggest that the will of the people would not prevail.  In fact the opposite is true, it will prevail.

Let us then move from the question of crime.  I do not think that one can doubt, that essentially there are two matters which I think are the root causes of crime.  The first one, is lawlessness which has come about because of a culture of entitlement.  We should ponder very seriously where that comes from.

The second issue is that we developed now into a situation where criminals know that they will not be caught.  Once you have that situation, then in fact crime pays, and the only sure way to stop that, is to make sure that criminals are actually arrested immediately and punished, and communities need to be more involved.  For example, I would suggest that when courts sit on bail applications, we should have a system of training assessors from the community, which communities sit with the magistrates and actually decide the fate of criminals, and decide whether bail is going to be granted or not.  The local people know what the situation is.  I believe that we should seriously look at that.

Then the second issue is the growing ranks of the unemployed.  A lot of people steal because they have no options.  I know particularly my colleagues on the other side of the House are always very sensitive about trade unions.  I believe that you should be very careful about what you are doing because in a very real sense what modern trade unionism is doing, it has become a new system of influx control, as we had under the National Party Government.

What a lot of the trade unions today are doing, is they are using the trade unions as a means of keeping the mass of the unemployed out.  It is very selfish, it is sort of a creation of a labour aristocracy and it is a dangerous development.  We in this House, I think, must never forget that at least 40% of the people are unemployed and we represent them, not the trade unions.  We should be guarding against the situation where we allow trade unions to create situations, where they look after themselves and forget about the unemployed.

That then brings me to the next issue and that is global competitiveness.  That is a very critical issue also with regard to trade unionism.  It is a fact today that our labour is not competitive.  At the end of the day, if you look at the structure of the South African economy, certainly with regard to KwaZulu-Natal, manufacturing now accounts for roughly 27% of our GDP in the Province.  As a country we cannot prosper unless we export.  The only way that you are going to succeed as an export country is if you become competitive.  That is a simple reality that we have to face. 

Having said that, I would also suggest and I know again people get sensitive about these things, but I do not think it is based on fact, I think that the time has come that we in KwaZulu-Natal, in particular, seriously consider the creation of export processing zones in our Province.  If you look at the economy of Mauritius for example, 70% of all exports now are created within export processing zones.

The beauty of export processing zones, many trade unionists fear them because they think that they create a situation where wages are forced down, the reality is that for example if you look at Mauritius, the wages in the export processing zones in Mauritius are higher than they are in the open market.

The other very significant thing is that in Mauritius, in the export processing zones, the wages are actually higher than they are in South Africa.  So there is no fear and I really believe that as a country, we need to manufacture to export.  Obviously KwaZulu-Natal is the area because we have the ports, we have the labour, we have the infrastructure and we are closest to the Pacific Rim countries.

Secondly, it is a pity Mr Rajbansi is not here, but one of the greatest assets we have in our country, in KwaZulu-Natal are the Indian people that were very meticulous about the education under apartheid.  There is a huge pool of highly skilled people, that can be really a motive for growth, in areas like export processing zones.

Mr Speaker, I want to end my remarks by referring, very briefly. We, in this Legislature, have been criticised very sharply and very vehemently for, and in fact I think sometimes very unfairly, for ostensibly investing our money in unproductive buildings.  I am not going to go into the details.  I want to address myself to the private sector and ask them to seriously consider looking at their own house.

Mr Nel, yesterday, made an observation that a big company like Sanlam had decided not to invest in the major metropoles in the urban areas anymore.  Now let us look at the facts.  One of the great tragedies of our country at the moment is that the private sector consistently goes and demolishes buildings all over Durban and the major metropoles and it is also in the smaller towns.

Now first of all, as the Acting Chairman of the Monuments Council I have a major problem with that, because a lot of very historic buildings that are very serviceable are destroyed.  It is a waste of money and it is a waste of our heritage, but there is a much more serious matter.  The private sector should think very carefully about accusing the Government, because they in fact are constantly, particularly the Sanlams and the Old Mutuals, are constantly building new buildings when there are perfectly serviceable buildings available.

What is actually happening here is that the savings of South Africans are being put into useless buildings.  In fact buildings of that nature in my judgment are totally unproductive.  What we are seeing today is that the major economic resource, which is capital, is in the hands of people that have got no experience in business.  These are investment managers who make a judgment and they put up a huge new building and they put in new tenants and people feel good being in the building but in terms of the economy we have generated nothing.

I believe that the time has come, I think maybe the Government should even look at this, when we should seriously consider ways of making sure that the savings of the nation are actually employed productively.  What we should be doing is not putting up bigger and bigger skyscrapers, we should be building more and more factories.  The beauty about that is that when you do that, you are actually putting the money into the hands of people that understand business, who understand risk-taking.  The Sanlams and the Old Mutuals have no understanding of risk-taking.  Their understanding of risk management is simply to put up another huge skyscraper and that is not productive, it is expenditure, it does not grow the economy and it certainly does not create jobs.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks I would end and say that I would have pleasure in supporting the budget.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Konigkramer.  I now call upon Mr B H Cele in terms of the revised times.  You have 15 minutes.



TRANSLATION: You are provoking me, there is a song that was sung by Mbongeni Ngema where he used to say the ANC and the IFP and Azapo must come together, and the National Party cried and howled and said why is it being left out.  The forces that know each other must come together, it must be remembered that I am a Zulu and I am an unadulterated one.  T/E

Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would just like to make a few points on policing.  There is this impression that is being created that the new Government, especially the National Government is not concerned about crime and is doing nothing about crime.  I do not think it is true.

Let us start with the budget that has moved from 8 billion to 11 billion.  That shows the commitment, but besides that, the new Police Academy to train police has been created where the CIDs will be trained because previously they were never trained to deal with crime, they were trained to deal with political activists.  Now that we do not run anymore, they do not know what to do.  That is a portion of the failure that they are not trained to deal with crime, they were trained to deal with political activism and now they cannot do so, they are running helter-skelter.

Thirdly, the previous Government could not expose the police to international expertise.  They were not part of Interpol and all that kind of thing, so they could not deal with organised international crime.  It is only now that they are exposed so they are in the position to deal with international organised crime.  Most of the crime that you see in the country does not start in the country, it is somewhere in the Far East, in South America, in Europe and it moves.  If you are not part of the international works, then you cannot begin to deal with that.  It is only this Government that has exposed the police to international policing through Interpol.

AN HON MEMBER:  We have been linked with Interpol for years.

MR B H CELE:  Now I see the police have been given the monitoring or the birds eye overview in terms of an independent complaints directorate.  They were a law unto themselves.  If you had a problem with the police you will be bashed by the police, they will kick down your door.  You go to the police station you are told to go and report to the police, like telling a mouse that has been chased by the cat that you go and report to the cat, yet you have been chased by the cat.  So we had to put this thing in order.  Hence the creation of an independent complaints directorate that would begin to oversee the operations of the police internally and otherwise.

I would also move on to the under-utilisation of the police.  There are things that people refuse to differentiate and understand here.  The policy making process and the operational process.  The Government at the level of the Minister, they make the policy.  The commissioners will have to put all the activities of the police in their operation.  Unfortunately, from the fathers that have created the rotten police before the apartheid, architects like the National Party, I have never heard them complaining about the operational shortcomings.  It is because their old bull boys and blue eyed boys are still there.  Hence they cannot complain about them.

Let us take the money that is given to the provinces.  Nobody knows how much money has come here to this Province for the police, and how it is used.  For instance, the Umbilo Police Station, last year alone used about R12 million at one police station.  Nobody asked and that police station is created in such a way that you can walk on foot from it to the headquarters of C R Swart, you can walk from there to Mayville, you can walk from there to Montclair and they do not ask, "Why do you not go to Nkandla.  Why do you not go to Mhlangasela and create the new police station after the 12 billion"?  Nobody asked that.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B H CELE:  Nobody asked that.  Hang on, wait, I am coming.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR B H CELE:  Why do you not ask your operational man in the Province, who is Serfontein?  Why do you not ask him because building the police station after the money has been given is definitely an operational thing?

AN HON MEMBER:  Ask the Minister.

MR B H CELE:  Okay.  Again I will go and ask the Minister why the trained police are pushing the papers and sitting behind the computers when your commissioner, it is your commissioner, understands very well ...

AN HON MEMBER:  No, it is your commissioner.  It is the responsibility of your Minister.

MR B H CELE:  I do not have a commissioner called Serfontein.  Unless you understand very well, that there are technikons here that train people in computers, that must go and work there and the trained police must go for the beach outside.  They should not rot in the offices.

Again I will have to go and ask Mufamadi, the Minister, why there is still racism in the police.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It looks like there is a point of order, Mr Cele.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, would the hon member take a question?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, he wanted to know whether you would take a question?

MR B H CELE:  I answer vibrant, intelligent and informed questions.  I will assess and see if I can.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, can the hon member tell me who the head of the executive arm of Government is in this instance?

MR B H CELE:  I cannot answer this one.  Could I proceed, Mr Speaker?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Proceed.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you.  Again I will have to go to the National and ask about racism.  Here there is a list of promotions which is an operational thing.  It is a list of about 3 000 promoted police.  I have seen only two Celes but to give a glimpse of what is happening.

The first page here is a list of 48 promoted from sergeant to inspector, not a single African.  The second page is a list of 46, only eight blacks.  The third page is a list of 49, only one black.  The fourth page is a list of 53, only two blacks.

These people are only promoted from being sergeants to inspectors, warrant officers and you tell me to go and ask the Minister, that is operational.  That is a job for nobody else but commissioners to do, and this is the job they are doing.

I want to remind everybody here that one basic element of the best working of the police is acceptability, you go and tell our people to accept such a police service that does not understand that Africans still live and are still here.

AN HON MEMBER:  All statements in Zulu.

MR B H CELE:  I am happy to hear my colleague supporting from the other side.  Indeed they say their statements will be in Zulu and they will go to their commissioner and hand the statement in in Zulu.  He will have to read it.  Mr Rudinger should take the responsibility of teaching the commissioner Zulu now.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Please get my name right.  It is Rudi Redinger.    

MR B H CELE:  Okay.  It is because of bantu education, I cannot pronounce it very well, sorry.

MR V A VOLKER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B H CELE:  I would also love to give the priorities that have been given by the National Government, that all of us will have to work around.  Priority one is to deal with the firearms, nationally and particularly in the Province.  We will have to put in order the Firearms Act.  The Firearms Act or the Arms and Ammunition Act, no matter what you call it, those who are calling on me to call their names correctly, I have just explained to them that I am a victim of apartheid.  It is definitely not me or my father that designed it, maybe Mr Redinger knows who designed it.  We will have to begin and understand that we cannot live in a country that allows an individual to own 16 guns.  That is what the law of this country says, that you can own 16 guns as an individual.  That is crazy.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B H CELE:  In that case we will definitely have to reduce that to a very reasonable kind of thing.

The second priority is that we will have to deal with the criminal organisation, the CO syndicates and all that.  

Thirdly, we will have to deal seriously with the crime against women and children, which is madness, which is literally madness.  We will have to deal with that.  We will have to deal with corruption.  We will have to develop a plan that is serious in preventing and developing preventative measures against crime.

I will take the pledge of sitting but not before I say this.  People complain about crime especially the National Party.  They complain about crime in this country.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR B H CELE:  They forget that they brewed the police, they brewed the crime.  

TRANSLATION:  We inherited an inheritance here.  The inheritance that we inherited from this Government was violence.  There is no other inheritance.  We inherited crime.  T/E
  
We got the crime from the National Party because as I have said, because ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B H CELE:  You should be keeping quiet, that we had to be put in the open grass and shot while they were inside there.  You should be ashamed and burying your heads in shame.   You should be quiet.

AN HON MEMBER:  Like Parliament.

MR B H CELE:  Yes, it is Parliament and this Parliament has not taken a decision to kill people and bury them, to capture them on the other side of the borders.  At least this Parliament, you understand now it is a Parliament that is not deciding to kill people.  It is not a Parliament that is deciding to wiping off the terrorist.  It is not the Parliament that sits and plans how it is going to kill people and you still talk and you still do not bury your head in shame. You should be burying your head in shame.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR B H CELE:  Yes, whatever you say.  There is a police that is looking at the amnesty with the seven days war.  When he says, "That was not an ANC and IFP war, it was our war".  So said the police.  He said, "That was our war", so says the police of the National Party Government.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have the honour to call upon Mr Redinger.  Mr Redinger, you have got ten minutes.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, for expressing my name correctly.  Mr Speaker, I am not really pleased to have to rise when we only talk of history in this House.  I would really like to address what is happening now and what is going on and what is going to happen in the future of our dear country.

I think our hon member here, Bheki Cele, is doing his party a disfavour.  I would now call it the "ANC Bhekemuva Party", because they only have rear-view mirrors and they have not got a windscreen.

We had meetings recently, joint meetings of agriculture and safety and security.  I was absolutely horrified in addressing the crime situation.  I was horrified to see what sort of ignorance there is even among our Ministers and our leaders as to what is really going on in this situation.

There are people, colleagues in this House, who say, "Ja, it is the human relations on the farms and that sort of thing that is causing all the murders".  Honestly yes, we know of people who have had it coming in their lives.  I will not apologise for them, but that is not the general trend.  We are bluffing ourselves, if we think we are going to hide behind the simple fact of human relations and say that is to blame for all our crime.  That is sick.

There is another perception here that farmers are not geared when it comes to two-way radios, that they have not got communications, that they have not put up enough security.  I do not know how much further people on the land will have to go to protect themselves.

MR W U NEL:  Why should they anyway?

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  That is the point.  It is just the point.  I am just mentioning it because, you know, the Minister got up and he said should we not help the farmers in buying two-way radios.  Well, you know, there are so many two-way radios.  There is one concern in this country that is a two-way radio system that is just making a killing.  They are making a fortune under these times.  The security firms are making a fortune under these times but enough of that.

I just wanted to plead that the Ministers think more deeply about this matter.  There is an intrinsic thing I think that we need to address on this whole issue.  It has been said so often in this House, that we are reeling under the blow by blow murders and attempted murders all around us.  No community, no gender, no sex, no age escapes the savagery of these times.

This Easter especially, because we had had a number of funerals and we had had a number of attacks again, one had time to perhaps reflect a little, because our Lord Jesus gave his life for us so that we could perhaps have an eternal life, at least for some people.  Those who believe in that, sorry.

It is a time where I could also not help but reflect on another person who almost gave up his whole life for this nation so that there would also be a better life for others.  I speak of none other than our dear beloved President Nelson Mandela.

In May 1994 President Mandela laid his hand on the Holy Bible and undertook to serve the Republic of South Africa loyally and to uphold the Constitution which is the supreme law of the Republic.  The Bill of Rights enshrined in this Constitution, inter alia declares that everyone has a right to life, everyone has a right to freedom and security of the person, which includes the right to be free from all forms of violence from either the public or the private sector and not to be tortured in any way.  That is what the Bill of Rights says.

In this Province since that election of 1994, we have had till December of last year 20 687 murders in this Province.  Citizens of this country who have been killed.  

Now most religions, I submit, submit to God's law that the Government does not bear the sword for nothing.  It is the duty of Government to punish the evildoers and to praise those who live a just life.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  The record unfortunately of this Government is a dismal one.  Our President has failed us.  The Cabinet have failed us.  Most of us love the dear old man Madiba and I love him with a passion.  He is really a bit too old now to face these circumstances that he has to face today.  I believe that the people around him have let him down.  The people have dropped Nelson Mandela.  The people around him have dropped him.  They have failed in their responsibility.

I am adamant on this.  If we have a sweetheart Minister of Safety and Security, sweetheart to POPCRU, what can we expect.  When we have a situation where Mr Sipho Mzimela is put in charge of punishing the perpetrators when it suits everybody because he is IFP.  It is the IFP meeting out punishment.  Who is repatriating immigrants, illegal immigrants in our country?  The leader of the IFP, nobody in the ANC.  You see, it is very subtle.  I have a problem, it is very subtle.

I would not like to go on the issues raised yesterday by my colleague, Mr Volker, when it comes from the sense of corruption that prevails in the departments and so on.  I do not want to belabour that issue, but there is a tide of maladministration which this country just cannot afford.  It is really very corrupt.

Then it brings me on to another issue.  I believe that intrinsically, there is a problem and it really concerns me.  I think it should concern every member of this House.  It is as if there is a subculture developing in our society, a subculture which I think all of us will have to put our finger on, we will have to define it and see where it may stem from and what the reasons may be.

I mean if you take the re-election of Winnie Mandela as leader of the Women's Action of the ANC.

AN HON MEMBER:  The Women's League.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  The Women's League.  If you take her re-election.  We all have very short memories.  You know, she forgot to hand in her official car, her cell phones.  She forgot to pay a chartered flight of a jet plane to Angola or somewhere.  She has forgotten all sorts of things but those things really do not matter when it comes to choosing leadership.

So what is the psyche?  This is what I am getting at, please listen carefully.  What is the psyche?

AN HON MEMBER:  What is the message?  Crime pays.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I am telling you that after the great public axing which was followed by her divorce from President Nelson Mandela, when she was written off politically, she was written off, all of us, I thought had a sigh of relief and said well, maybe on to better things.  What happens now?  How does she keep pulling off all these unexpected coups like her re-election?

The favourite answer is to say it is political.  They say there is a popular revolt against the reconciliatory policies of the Government of the day.  They say it is a reaction to the reconciliation as practised by Madiba and the ANC today.  There are others who say, you know, it is a reaction because Mandela is simply not taking the white's money away and giving it to the blacks.  That is what is being said in broad terms.  That is the psyche.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  All right.  There is a growing section of this society that is increasingly ruled by short term gratification at the expense of principle.  The worst expression of this is in crime, but other variants are to be found in the hundreds of thousands of petty offences committed each day and in the national obsession with making a quick buck.

I think the real question our leaders must address is this.  Is this really the very soul of our society?  Is this the real psyche?  How is it otherwise possible that when he has strived she is at odds with the Constitution, at odds with the Government, at odds with the opposition, at odds with her husband, at odds with business, at odds with labour.  She wants it all and she has it all.

So there is a subculture, this is what I am talking about and it is not just she, but it is personified in her election, and that is the challenge I believe that is facing all of us in this country.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now have the honour to call upon the hon member Mr Mohlomi.  You have nine minutes, sir.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the topic that I would like to address myself to I think is a very controversial one, especially in the light of the looming strike, by the labour movement, which is likely to take place on Monday, the 12th of this month.

I am saying that this is a controversial topic because of the attitude of some of the members of this House towards labour.  I see my colleague there, the hon Mr Mthiyane laughing because he knows we always talk about some of the attitudes of some of the members of this House, when it comes to the labour movement.  So both of us coming from the labour movement as we do, we do share some jokes about what is being said in this House, from time to time.  I am saying that because I know those views and some of those views in actual fact are very, very backward, they do not represent the modern day at all.

It has often been stated in this House that unions are an undesirable evil and have to be crushed at all costs.  One member of this House during one of the debates praised Mrs Margaret Thatcher, for the way she dealt with the unions and even suggested that we in South Africa should follow her example.

I remember very clearly that when that was said there were cries of "Hear! Hear!", which meant that the House or some members of the House approved of that suggestion.  When I stood up to participate in that debate, I said the unions are here to stay.  What we need is a mature way of working with them, rather than to try and crush them or destroy them and so on, as it is the view of some of the members here.

I even posed a rhetorical question as to where is Mrs Margaret Thatcher now and where is the labour movement?

AN HON MEMBER:  What kind of labour?

MR T S MOHLOMI:  The answer obviously is that the labour movement in Britain is still alive and kicking, and Mrs Thatcher is no longer the Premier of Britain.  In fact even her party recently suffered a heavy defeat at the hands of the Labour Party.

I also remember one of the members of this House, in an informal discussion during our tea break, referring to the COSATU-ANC Alliance, that the ANC is riding on the back of a tiger and he said he wondered what will happen when the ANC climbs down from the back of the tiger.  This summed up how some of the members of this House view labour in general and in particular COSATU.

However, let us look at the facts of the situation in this country.  It is an undeniable fact that the most oppressed and downtrodden people of our country are the workers, and specifically the black African workers.  This has a long history to it starting with the dispossession of our people of their land, to the discovery of gold and diamonds and the industrialisation of this country during the 40s.

If you read our history books dealing with the period immediately after the discovery of these minerals, the theme that runs through is that South African politics was about mining and cheap black labour.  That was the politics of the day.  Any political party which did not say what he was going to do about mining, and how it was going to ensure that there was plenty cheap black labour, had no support in South African politics.  This in fact has been the situation in South Africa up to now, especially the issue of cheap black labour.  That is still the issue when it comes to business, especially. 

It was none other than the National Party/Labour Party coalition in 1924, which passed the Industrial Conciliation Act, which effectively barred black workers from forming and belonging to unions.  In fact they put it so artistically, you know, they said anybody who carries a pass, the dom pass, was not allowed to belong to a union.  They never said black people were not allowed to belong to the unions by this Industrial Conciliation Act.  They simply said anybody who was carrying a passbook could not belong to a union, and who was carrying a passbook?  It was only the black male workers.

Of course, this did not stop black workers from organising themselves right up to 1981, when rights to belong to the unions were extended to the black African workers for the first time, after the Wiehahn Commission of 1979.  This was obviously after a long and bitter struggle, in which some people lost their lives.  You will remember the likes of Neil Aggat.  He was a white person.  You will remember the likes of Sam Nkosi and many others who were shot and killed by hit squads, third force activities and so on.  Some were gaoled, others were banned, others were tortured and so on, in that struggle just to gain that basic right, which we regard today as a basic right for people to organise themselves.

Therefore we need to understand, that the right for unions to exist in this country, especially for black workers, is a hard won right, which unions will do everything to defend.  Unions value and cherish this right very deeply, together with all that they have won for workers in the form of improved wages and working conditions and improvements in the laws that regulate labour relations in this country.  Because of gaining that right to belong to unions, unions have been able to gain a lot of rights for their members, which today in some quarters people are saying no, labour has got too many rights, they have to be cut back.

I also strongly believe that if you talk about labour you are actually talking about the other blade of a pair of scissors.  No pair of scissors can cut if the other blade is not there.  The other blade is the employers of course, and here I will refer to both private sector and public sector employers, like ourselves as the Government of this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  The important thing is, that if you say there can be only one blade that functions and the other one is not there, there will not be a pair of scissors.

Therefore, this then brings us to the question, how should we deal as the Provincial Government and also as an employer, how should we deal with organised labour?

I believe, that the first thing for us to do is to formulate a clear labour relations policy and set up a fully staffed department of labour relations or IR as other people would call it.  We also need to get fully qualified people who are going to be able to handle these matters effectively.

I remember last year, I think it was when we were discussing the issues of discipline in the various departments, there was a very big outcry in this House as to why are people still being kept in employment when there are cases against them.  I remember that we even talked about that with the hon Mr Mthiyane, and the feeling of the House was that those people should have been fired.  They should have been dismissed long ago, but there are clearly set down procedures.  You cannot just do it anyhow.  No matter how angry you are, you have to follow certain clearly laid down procedures, in terms of the Labour Relations Act.

I am not saying that people should not be dismissed if they have committed crimes and corruption and all that, but we must have professional people, who will understand these things, so that we do not find ourselves in a situation where we have to pay millions to people that were unfairly dismissed.

I also believe that as the Government we need to encourage a move away from the adversarial approach to labour relations and encourage co-operation between labour, business and Government.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Oh I have not even started.  [LAUGHTER]  Okay.  Mr Speaker, I just want to end by touching on the question of training.  We are saying that our country is unable to compete internationally because other countries are better than us or the labour costs are high and so on.  I believe, the essence or the most important pillar for us to be competitive internationally is to train our people.  Training will also help us with reducing unemployment because if a person is a trained carpenter, he can set up his own small workshop, or if he is an electrician, he can go around helping other people with his skills.  That can reduce unemployment.

I also want to recommend, that although I know it is not our competence to tax or to provide tax incentives to business, I think that in order for us to be able to encourage business to train people, we should devise some schemes and mechanisms that will encourage them to invest a lot of money in training.

With those few words, Mr Speaker, I must say I have not touched on a lot of things that I wanted to say because of the time problem, I just wish to thank you and take my seat.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mohlomi.  Unfortunately for you, you only had nine minutes.  Next time we hope your Whip will do better.  

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Yes, thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now would like to call upon the Minister of Public Works, Minister C J Mtetwa and the Minister has 15 minutes.

TRANSLATION:  Hon Speaker and your House, I take this opportunity as those who I am responsible to, have already said, that I can use this time for your works.  I will try by all means to do your work in an honourable way, this great work of yours.  Before I say anything Mr Speaker, I want to warn the house as follows.  There is something that I perceive that we are missing.  Perhaps in our thinking, perhaps this is caused by the fact that there are things that have been left undone, that have not been done yet up until this day, there were certain promises made that these things would be done and that these things would be rectified.

Today we have a Government comprising of many different parties, that is political parties.  But as we travel along this road we reach a point where one sees that race still raises its head.  It looks as if this issue of race has not been resolved.  There has not as yet been a true finding of one another.  We have not discerned where we are all coming from and where we stand.

You see, if you listen carefully to what is said in this house, from this morning I have been listening.  T/E

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, if I could just extend my apology to the Minister.  Just on a point of order, the translation which I can hear happening is not carrying through to the speakers at all and I wonder if that can be corrected.  We wish to follow the Minister.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am reliably informed that somebody is attending to that one.  Hopefully it will be resolved fairly soon.  The Minister will continue please and we are sorry about that.


TRANSLATION:  They will not complain and say that they did not hear.  I want them to hear because the side that is making a noise is always on that side.  If they do not learn we will be in danger.  I see that there is this danger, all the world in Africa, that is the world of the black people which has gained independence ended up in a hole.

Today all the big countries, overseas say with great braveness to Mabutho.  They are saying no, get off the chair and the person that must get on the chair who is it, is it Khabela.  There is not one country of those countries that have been given freedom of the Black Countries, which does not have advisors who are white. [LAUGHTER]

But when things gone wrong they are no longer there.  I am warning you Black people.  I am not saying this because it is something that I like saying, I do not like it but I am forced by reality, because we must say what is going to help us and what is going to be beneficial in this House.

I am coming back to this point that we are talking about, as there is peace, we are talking about the budget, as we see it.  But we must never forget that it is necessary for us to encourage the National Government to listen to us and to bring its mind to bear we want to express our thanks for what is been done. 

I do not think that when we say it is not enough we are saying that because we are battling for power, no.  We need to work together with the National Government and advise the National Government and the National Government must hear what we are saying.

If one looks at the National Government, particularly, that is the new Democratic Government that now holds the reign of power, it has done very little indeed when it comes to talking about the people for whom provision need to be made, when one thinks about all those who were canvassing for the election, and when one thinks about the poorest of the poor, those are the people whose needs must be addressed first, they are the people that must be taken out of the mud that they are in.  

Right up until today when one refers to those people their needs have not been address in the manner in which they should been have addressed, right down at the places where they are.  Instead of that people talk about development which is their very popular thing these days.

Now the problem is that how do you develop a person who is in deep trouble, the first thing which you must do for that person is to get them out of that trouble that they are in and put them on the level so that they can survive for themselves and start taking the first tottering steps towards development.

Our population has not arrived at a point or at a level where they can take the first tottering steps towards development, they are at a level where they need to be taken out of the difficulties which confront them and placed in a situation where they can be developed.  If one looks at the places which development passed by deliberately, and this was done by all the governments which previously existed in this country, which actively prevented development of the black people.  This happened mainly in the rural areas.  

The result of this was that the people that we are talking about today, when we are talking about development, we are talking about the people that came in mass to live close to the towns. Hoping to gain a better life for themselves.  But alas even there it was the same.  

I am saying Mr Speaker, and this hon House if indeed the Government could - with the intention of trying to obtain a better life.  And there it was exactly the same, [this appears as what I have been interpreted but nevertheless I will continue.]

I am saying Mr Speaker, and your hon House if indeed the Government houses a law, which is truly just, the starting point must be those people.  There must be a greater budget which is intended to help the people, all the people who fall under the Government of this Province.  Not only KwaZulu-Natal, I believe that this affects all the people of that area.

As far as these people are concerned there are many things that we do not even to ask about, as we are talking about the budget but no plans have been made for those things.  And you are surprised and you ask yourself how are we going to get these people out of the difficulties that they are in if we have not addressed these things and programmes which are fundamental to this success, have not been instituted.  These are things which everybody who is here in KwaZulu-Natal can see when one goes outside, these are things which are the very crux of the development of people that is of the black people in the rural areas.  These are the things that we should start with.

Without even asking what they want, without even giving them an opportunity there are things which could be done that is the fencing of the fields, the fencing of the grazing lands, the fencing of schools, our schools there in the rural areas are in a shocking state, they are not fenced, they do not have toilets, they do not have water, they do not have cottages for teachers these are things which are very glaringly apparent, these are things which one does not have to ask questions about, but these are things which people have been avoiding and not confronting directly.

If those people could be helped if we could start there, even these people that come in to towns in such a disorderly fashion and build shacks would lessen because they would be given a structure for health and life and would have been given a structure to be able to live without having to come helter skelter into the towns.    

If this is not done Mr Speaker and your hon House, I have my doubt whether any fundamental assistance to the people will indeed take place, and whether things will really be put right.  This is what bothers me, there are sums of money which have been set aside to build houses for people, people in rural areas fortunately do build their houses for themselves, they do build dwellings for themselves.  But they do not get any assistance, they pay taxes like everybody else, they are poor but even in that situation they pay taxes like everybody else, who pays taxes in this country.  I think that if we could really address their plight that would be the real start where we could really start to go forward.  This would indeed put them at a level which is necessary for them to be able to fend for themselves.

I want to come back to this Mr Speaker, that today when we talk about this great popular thing, when we talk about the money which is paid by the taxpayers, those people are not counted.  If you cast your mind back and think when the black people started paying tax in this country, they started paying tax in 1884, they were told to pay taxes for houses.  They payed taxes for their houses while they were unemployed, and there was nothing that they gained over and above that.  They merely payed taxes because they were defeated that is all.  This matter continued until 1904 where the tax of a pound per head was payable, and this led to the violence in 1906 which became known as the ~Bhambatho~ Rebellion. [LAUGHTER].  The ~Bhambatho~ Battalion was then formed by Makhaye. [LAUGHTER].  We are talking about the amount of the difficulties that the people in the rural areas out there experience.  These difficulties were not caused by the fact that they are black they were not cause either by the fact that they do not know what to do.  If you think carefully about the fact that people were expected to pay tax while they were unemployed, together with the fact that they did not have money. 

It then became necessary for a person to sell his goat to the whites, in order to get money from the whites.  That person had to go and sell his cow to the whites, in order to get money to pay tax to the whites.  These people are unemployed, nothing at all was provided for them, they gained nothing from their paying of taxes.  This money was money that was taken from them, the intention being that all their wealth should be milked from them until it was finished.

When their wealth was finished they had to go and dig for money in the mines, they were pay a pound every three months.  When the wealth of this country increased the black people were then prevented from going to the towns, it was then said that a black person is not allowed to go to the towns and that any black person that went to the towns could only go if he had be given specific permission by the Commissioner dealing with the blacks, that person was then given a ticket to go to Johannesburg.

When all this happened - this was all a ploy, to impose sanctions on the wealth of the black person.  So that a black person would be oppressed unless he would enter into this suffering that he has entered into now.  I am trying to say the black people did not get into these difficulties and suffering that they are in because they are stupid, but they were made to be in the situation that they are in.  T/E

like to asks whether the hon member would take a question, it is a easy question.  And it is a question regarding what was said in your speech regarding the cattle].  

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):  Buza.  [Ask].

[Is the Minister saying that the cattle that we see which are owned by the whites and the goats that the whites have at present, that these were taken from us, that they did not have any of their own?  Thank you].

TRANSLATION:  Now because the question is asked by a teacher I would not have a problem in answering the question, but because it is a teacher asking so that he can help the children on Monday I must answer him.

When they arrived they did not have cattle my friend, if you are ~Xaba~ you must know that.  I am not talking about their cattle whether they had their cattle or whether they did not have their own cattle, but I am telling the truth the one truth regarding the method that was used to finish our cattle, that is what I am saying.  That a system was introduced to finish the cattle that we had, and that system was that go and pay a pound per head, pay tax for your wife in the sum of ten shillings, yes your wife.

You may get angry but you pay tax for her, the truth is that you pay tax for her.  There was no money, there was only one place where a black person could get money to pay tax and that was to take what he had and to sell it to the whites in order to get money to pay tax to the whites.  That is in fact the truth of what happened in this country.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Minister you have got one minute left].

REV C J MTETWA:  

TRANSLATION:  Thank you sir, I am trying to say that this Government that is now in existence, no, that if the people our people are found to be in a positions that they are, that apart from the fact that disease came, apart from the fact that hunger came, apart from the fact that all other manner of problems came, that floods came, but all these things came after all our wealth had already been taken from us.

I was going to say that we must not confuse the issue that when we talk about the development of our people, then there is noise in this House.  Because the truth that stands is that this was done because if there is noise as a result of this that will bring the question of race to the fore.  The question of race should not be an issue any more, all that must happen now is that we must know what to do and what not to do.

I say this money which we have all of it Mr Speaker, it needs firstly to go and close the gap, then we can come to all these different brightly coloured systems of development, but we must first put our people on a level where they can be taken and developed.

I am saying that it is necessary that when budgets are drawn up, it will be necessary for the National Government to remember if indeed it has forgotten that there is still a deficit that has not been addressed.  I say these people in the rural areas they should have money which is budgeted for them because they build their own houses, what about the money that should have gone to build their houses.  I say that this money should go to address these other things that I have mention.

If the Government does that it will mean that those beasts that were taken from ~Xaba~ will be replaced by the Government indeed.  Thank you Mr Speaker, I will speak again, about the budget I have not as yet spoken about the budget.  I was speaking about budget policy, I was introducing policy in that regard.  You will give me an opportunity to speak about the budget proper. 
Thank you.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  ~Mhlonishwa~, the first thing I want to do is to apologise to those members of the House who have not heard what the Minister has been saying.  Accept my apology.  I would have loved if it was just a minor error which I could detect.  I would have told the Minister to stop, but it appeared that we were not dealing with a minor error.  I am informed that the technicians are still attending to it.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Let us go back to ~Ulundi~.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, unfortunately I am not in a position to make that decision right now.  Hopefully things are going to come right.  In essence, I think those of you should have understood that the Minister was simply saying, let us avoid being racialistic.  It will arouse emotions.  That was his main message.  All of the other issues were just examples of how racism was built up going together with economic disempowerment and that is where we are now.  I am just trying to show my sincerity of being very concerned about the manner in which you have lost.

I will now call upon Mr I C Meer.  Mr I C Meer you have, according to the revised times, you have nine minutes, sir.

MR I C MEER:  This is not the first time that the axe has come down on me.  I accept it with due grace.  

Mr Speaker, I want to welcome the hon Premier to today's session.  I do so in a spirit of understanding that this House should have critical views about the Executive which is in the debate on the budget.  The pupils are the Executive members and the Legislature members are the teachers.  That is the purpose of the general debate when it comes to the budget debate.  It gives the opportunity to members of the Legislature to speak on any subject, so that the Cabinet can collectively apply its mind to the very many problems that arise.  I know that the hon the Premier was elsewhere engaged yesterday so he could not be here.  I also came to know that Minister S'bu Ndebele is ill and therefore he is not here today.

What I am saying, that will make this debate even more effective.  It is the duty of the Whips, and I do not see the two main political party's Whips here, to tell us at the beginning of the debate why members of the Executive in particular are absent or why there is such a poor attendance in the House.  This is very  important, and I want particularly in the absence of the two Chief Whips, for the presence of leader of the House, whom I do also not see here.  [LAUGHTER]  To take into account that this is his duty as the leader of the House.  He must tell us why people are not here, so we do not come with the type of gossip that goes on in the absence of facts that truancy does not stop at the level of school children in schools.  [LAUGHTER]

We have a very important duty in the general debate.  And this applies to every member of the Legislature, because collectively the Executive is responsible to this Legislature as a whole.  Just as the Premier presented to us the budget speech which comprehended all members of his Cabinet, so too we are now dealing with issues not affecting a single particular Minister.  The particular Minister does not have to be here only to hear when his particular debate comes on.  He must listen and have this holistic approach to the whole question.  I am thankful that at least I follow a member of the Executive in Zulu, and I am even more thankful to my teacher in the old days in Wasbank, where Mr Malinga taught me Zulu.  So I followed what was said in Zulu notwithstanding the technological sabotage in translation that was going on elsewhere.  [LAUGHTER]

Now we have abolished race discrimination at two levels.  Politically and legally.  It has been banished through a tremendous amount of sacrifice of many individuals present in this House, and present outside this House.  And yet when the hon Minister leads us in this promised land there are many problems that face us.

One point which I want to emphasise at this stage is, we must not allow regional discrimination to take over from racial discrimination.  I repeat, regional discrimination must not take over from racial discrimination.  This is vitally important and on which all political parties must be totally united.  This is the philosophical approach of the Finance Committee, unity of all parties in good governance.

The Finance Committee did not sit there as members of political parties, they were totally united in assessing the contribution of each department, 15 of them, and to be critical of the shortcomings and praiseworthy for the good thing that had been done.  Very important.  

I may say just in passing, that the unity was so great that even the Democratic Party failed to tell us that they were going to oppose this budget here.  They were so united in our general approach with the problem.  [LAUGHTER]  I came to know over the last meeting that this was so, but that is right, which is what democratic approaches are all about.  The greater the attacks on our failures and lesser the praise for our achievement then we will make a good headway.

We are getting something like R17 billion, a little more, for this region from the Central Government.  And we now have a new formula.  You get the lump sum, you divide it as you want to although in calculating how the 17 billion is arrived there is a national formula to all nine provinces.

When that is the position two things happen.  Unless we apply frugality, efficiency and a clean Government we will make a mess of things.  This is the message that must go out collectively from all political parties present in this House.

I want to ask the hon the Premier to become the modern day Oliver Twist.  That is a message to the entire Cabinet.  They must "ask for more" because we are entitled to more.  We must however place on record sensibly that the days of the National Party, when we were made essentially the Cinderella Province, that has ceased to exist.  We have a right to say that 25% of the population is in this region; we have the largest school-going population of any part of the country and we are entitled to sufficient funds to be able to discharge our duties.  This becomes a prime responsibility, collectively of all political parties in this Province.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR I C MEER:  At the same time let us realise that in the days of apartheid we had to rely on our own self-help in the field of education.  We went around and collected money from our own community.  I remember a very large meeting held at Curries Fountain, where Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi addressed us, when we as a Committee had collected money to build a complete high school at Port Shepstone; carried out important changes to Ohlanga Institute and built a school at Umlazi.  He, that is Chief Buthelezi, said that in matters of education it is our tradition that the poor has helped the poor.

That tradition must not be lost.  I want to appeal from this chamber to our communities to continue in that spirit of self-help which is vital, important and necessary.  

The Indian community stopped contributing towards Indian schools when the House of Delegates came into existence against their wish.  The Committee continued to collect money and we built a large number of schools for African communities.  The Divine Life Society built something like over 30 schools and I know nearest to me at Ndwedwe, at Itfamasi the A M Moolla Trust built a school.  That programme must be encouraged to continue.

Unless we have that spirit of self-help we will not be able to get rid of the tremendous imposition that apartheid has left behind.  In other words, the tremendous crushing imbalances that we face today can only be eradicated if we have that community spirit of self-help.

This is my plea.  The Cabinet must plan things with frugality, efficiency and commitment to have a clean Government.  If we can abolish the ghosts and have greater efficiency then I agree entirely with the Premier, when he said that R6 billion was a lot of money.  Let us stop complaining and get down to using that money as efficiently as possible.  Those words must be written in golden words for all our individual Cabinet Ministers to see that we carry on that way in a spirit of frugality and efficiency.

Coming to another point, very briefly, on the question of the press.  We are essentially ensuring that there should be freedom of the press.  We are saying that there was a lack of that freedom through various reasons.  I know I myself have been a victim of these tremendous difficulties placed on the press.

Some newspapers were murdered.  The first to be murdered was the "Guardian", then came a number of papers that took over from the "Guardian".  They too were murdered.  The "Bantu World" was murdered.  Then there were papers to who committed suicide and one of those was the Rand Daily Mail.  A horrible act of suicide when there was nobody doing that.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Twenty seconds more.

MR I C MEER:  So in this new era you have judiciary, you have Legislature, you have the Executive but very important, the fourth house is the press.  Unless the freedom we want for ourselves in the fields of law and politics is extended to the press, we cannot really claim freedom for our people.

So in that spirit, that important speech made by hon Mr Dumisani Makhaye must be understood.  We are pledged to the freedom of the press as all political parties, even the born-again democrats who were no democrats before.  [LAUGHTER]  They must place themselves with us to see that we have this freedom which prevails.  In that spirit, sir, I am again welcoming the Premier in our midst and we hope that the entire Cabinet will convey to them what is being said to them in their absence in this Legislature.

Again if the Chief Whip is now here, I ask the Chief Whip very politely that every morning before we start let us be told, so many Cabinet Ministers are absent because of the following reasons so that when I hear whispers in the corridors of power that so and so is now truanting, and so and so is meeting his new girlfriend, that these are false rumours.  [LAUGHTER]

MR V A VOLKER:  He is referring to Mandela.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Listen here, you really make it difficult for me to shut you up.  Hopefully there will be new Rules.  I am sure the Chief Whips are dealing with them now and the new Rules provide for the register for all members, including the Ministers.  In particular the Ministers, and it is not just for signing the register, it is for dealing with those who do not sign it because they are not there to sign it.

Nonetheless, that will be tabled some time tomorrow, Mr Meer.  Your observations are being attended to.  I now wish to call upon Minister Narend Singh to address the House for 15 minutes, Mr Singh.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  I am glad that I am present today and I must apologise for not being present yesterday, due to being away in Pretoria on urgent Government business.  I will report to the Agriculture Portfolio Committee on some of the successes that were achieved yesterday.

It is indeed a pleasure for me, to follow on such a sober speaker by Mr Meer, who has been so constructive in his comments.  Mr Meer, as far as I am concerned, is one of the freedom fighters, who will go down in the annuals as being in the forefront of the freedom struggle in South Africa.  I always value his input and his wise words.

I would also like to support his call for more for this Province.  You are right.  For too long we have been the Cinderella Province and we know who to blame for that.  At least we are now reaching a stage where we seem to be getting some kind of an equitable distribution of funds to our Province, but I think it is our responsibility and that of the Executive to use these funds wisely, efficiently and in a manner in which the community whom we represent will benefit the greatest.

We owe a lot to those thousands of people that queued up under very difficult conditions on 27 April and 28 April three years ago, to cast their votes for political parties whom they thought will deliver the goods for them.  We have that responsibility and I can assure you that as a member of the Executive, and I can also speak for the Executive, we will endeavour to execute that responsibility to the best of our ability.

Before I go on to what I want to say, I would like to just comment very briefly on what the hon Mr Redinger had to say.  Mr Redinger suggested that the Ministers, and I take it that he referred to Minister ~Inkosi~ ~Ngubane~ and I as Minister of Agriculture, were not concerned about what was happening to farmers and the loss of lives on farms.

Now I want to tell him that he is absolutely wrong.  More than anybody else, the hon Mr Redinger should be quite aware of the fact that the hon ~Inkosi~ ~Ngubane` and I, together with the Portfolio Committees on Safety and Security and Agriculture, took the initiative to call a meeting, to listen to a representative or a consultant from the Natal Agricultural Union brief us on the attacks on farmers.  We took that initiative.  We are awaiting a response from the NAU on certain questions that we put to him.

You are quite aware, the hon Mr Redinger, the impression that the NAU consultant gave us was that the police themselves were just not interested in the affairs of farmers.  They conducted their own research on some of the police and police stations, attitudes were wrong and there was just no care.

I have consulted with the Chairperson of my Portfolio Committee, Mr Morris MacKenzie and Mr Bheki Cele, who have started the process of trying to assimilate information and verifying the information that was presented to us at that meeting.

So I think it is absolutely wrong, Mr Redinger, to suggest to this House that we are not concerned about what is happening to farmers.  In fact we are concerned about what is happening in the Province as a whole.  One life lost is one life too many and we will do everything to ensure that this does not continue.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I was concerned about your ignorance on the affair.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  I would like to inform you, Mr Redinger, that although I may be new in this portfolio I have been very, very well briefed by the Chairperson of my Portfolio Committee and others.  I am on top of the situation of security of farmers.  We will do everything, I assure you that from the agriculture point of view, even if it means giving more two-way radios, which you think may not be necessary.  We do not have policing powers in the Department of Agriculture, but we will try to do everything to ensure that we protect our farmers, because we believe that they are the ones that provide food for the nation and we have to ensure that they are protected.

Whilst doing this, we have to ensure that the approach we take is one which includes the entire rural community.  We are not going to be focusing on a particular community or a particular race group.  We are going to be focusing on the entire rural community, because for too long police stations have been situated in areas where you do not really need them.  The whole coast is inundated with police stations and that is not our doing.  That is the doing of the past Government.  The time has come for police stations to be shifted into rural areas where they can respond as quickly as possible to those farmers that need assistance.

The hon Mr Redinger also suggested that the leader and president of the IFP is not doing enough with regard to the refugee situation.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I would like to correct that, sorry.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  May I give him an opportunity to correct that, Mr Speaker, with your permission?

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, all I said is that the difficult task of repatriation of illegal immigrants is being handed to the leader of the IFP.  I never slated the leader of the IFP.  Sorry.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, thank you for that.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  Well, I suppose with every position you take there is a responsibility, and he has the responsibility on his shoulders.  I will assume that whatever he does, he is doing with Cabinet's authority.  I can assure you that a lot is being done about the refugee situation.  I attended a conference last week and the hon Minister of Home Affairs himself addressed us and informed us of what measures are being taken.

On maladministration.  Yes, there are many, many incidences of maladministration that we have discovered in our Government.  I think Mr Volker has been at the forefront with his Public Accounts Committee in discovering this maladministration.

I believe that we are doing enough to eradicate the scourge that has permeated our administration.  For better or worse I served in the Tricameral Parliament in the Public Accounts Committee and when we went through the Auditor-General's report what we found then, will make what we are finding now like a Sunday School picnic.  Millions and millions of Rands of wasteful expenditure, misdirected funds, funds being directed into areas where they were not required.  I do not want to dwell into the past, but I think we should learn from the past so that we can correct this in the future.  I believe that we are trying our best to correct the whole question of maladministration in our Government.

I was very concerned to be told that yesterday, in my absence an opinion was expressed to the effect that the Owen Sithole campus may have been misused at some time in the past.  I understand that there was an insinuation that it was being misused for the benefit of IFP supporters.

Now this is absolute nonsense.  I wish to place on record that the campus was not misused, and there were no political agendas behind trying to improve a campus which we need desperately.  We have the ~Mangosuthu~ Technikon which is concentrating on the theoretical side of agriculture.  We now need the Owen Sithole campus to ensure that we can put into practice what people learn at these colleges.

I want to give the House the assurance that we will not do anything in this Province from the Executive to support one political party or another.  We are committed to serving the people of this Province irrespective of the political parties they come from.  The time for politicking will come and that will be closer to the elections but I think now we are committed to delivery to the people.

As Minister of Agriculture, I believe it is now appropriate that my comments are focused around the core function of my Department.  That is the sustainable production of food, fuel and fibre, and on the contribution that agriculture can, must and will make to the social upliftment programme and thus to the economic well-being of this Province.

As we all know KwaZulu-Natal is a province richly endowed with water and good soils, but which has yet to reach its full potential in providing quality of life for all its people.  Up to now little has been done in this regard.  Government, therefore has a duty to address this great need for integrated rural development in order to stimulate or "kick-start" a period of major agricultural development in KwaZulu-Natal.  I wish to state on record that I support whole heartedly the Premier's Discretionary Fund and not the slush fund, although it was referred to in inverted commas in one of our dailies.  Each one of us, has as responsible citizens made allowances for a saving scheme to tide us over our emergencies.  So too should our Province.  

In fact, I believe it is a matter of Good Governance to make provision for a contingency fund, and that is what this Discretionary Fund is all about.

The existence of such a fund is to the advantage of every department in this Province.  Should any department require additional funding for a project which could be seen as a provincial imperative, and should that department submit a business plan, there is the possibility that this fund could answer their needs.

In fact, the Premier has already accessed his Discretionary Fund by making available a sum of R20 million in his Budget for projects which will empower the small-scale farming sector and, in so doing, will contribute to household food security.  My Department is working in close co-operation with communities concerned, and has drawn up proposals for projects which will be equitably spread over the seven Regional Council areas of our Province.

While some of these are purely agricultural development projects, in many cases there will be a need for a multi-disciplinary approach and we will be taking the concept of integrated rural development to its logical conclusion and calling on our sister departments for their co-operation.  Similarly, should any other department call for the co-operation of my Department, I can assure them that it will be forthcoming.

I can assure the House that, as a result of this co-operative integrated approach that the sum of R20 million allocated to agriculture rural development, will be well spent in the service of the community.

Out of this Discretionary Fund the Premier has also accessed an amount of R10 million for us to support the efforts of KWANALU (the KwaZulu-Natal Agricultural Union).  This grant will assist the union in its challenging task of restructuring organised agriculture in the Province, and we believe that we will be of great service to farmers.  We are hoping that out of this R10 million and out of the financial support that we give KWANALU, they too will make a contribution to the security problem that we have in the rural areas.  It will be a task of the Union to make meaningful contributions to the development of a thriving and prosperous agriculture, not only in KwaZulu-Natal, but also in the country as a whole.

The Discretionary Fund also was tapped to resolve the impasse that arose in connection with the forestry function.  As all members are aware, forestry is not a provincial function.  The Public Service Commission recommended that this function should be transferred to the National Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, with effect from January 1, 1995.  However, a political impasse developed.  In order to resolve this task, a task team consisting of officials from my Department and the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry was appointed and were charged with bringing about the transfer which took place on April 1, 1997.

On the strength of the generally accepted Government principle that "funds follow functions", the Premier has made the necessary amount of R20 million available to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.

Our objective is to make this Province the food basket of South Africa, not only for South Africans, but also to expand our market horizons and let it become a food basket of the world.  Our country is the envy of the world in terms of its capacity to produce food.  Yet tragically so many of our people experience high incidences of undernourishment, starvation and insufficient supply of nutritional food.  We are all aware that the deprivation of essential foods in early childhood can permanently damage the health of the child.  Our country, by neglecting the health of the children, particularly among the black and rural communities wasted much of its human resources.  That also means wasting precious economic potential.  We all must strive to correct this sad situation.

I am personally committed, and I have the backing of the Cabinet, to correct the food supply imbalance particularly as far as the poor are concerned.  I am also committed to address the needs of the historically disadvantaged farming communities, so that they too can take their place among the food producers of this country.  It behoves us to put in place an agricultural service, that meets the needs and aspirations of all the farmers of KwaZulu-Natal.

One of the hon speakers on the other side, raised the question of communication, I think it was the hon Mr Meer himself.  I wish to address the question of communication not only with the media but communication between the Executive, the Legislature and our Government departments.

What I wish to indicate is that each of the Ministries and each of the departments have to recognise the vital role of Government communications.  For far too long this country, the Government, has not played a pro-active role in communications and this must be changed.  There is now a vital need for Government to take the lead in interacting positively with all of its target audience.  By that I mean the departmental and Ministry staff as well as the media, the voter, opinion leaders, business communities, overseas investors, the learners or pupils, students and teachers of our land.

While acknowledging the importance of the print media we also need to remember that while many thousands of our citizens cannot still read or write, many of them have access to radio or television.  We must exploit these communication channels to the fullest.  We need to see all the media as powerful partners.  We have a vital role to play in keeping the public informed.  We also need to acknowledge our dependence on the media, for often we too, as individuals and in our private capacities, rely on their reports for information on many matters.

If we acknowledge the importance of Government communications, we must also acknowledge the importance of our Minister and departmental communications components and ensure that they are equipped to meet the task we require them to perform.

I agree that we do not have a budget that is adequate to meet all the needs of the people of this Province, but as I said earlier on, we have a responsibility to assure that we spread this money as widely as possible.  We as the Executive are committing ourselves to ensure that we give our taxpayers, the Legislature and all the people of this Province value for money.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Singh.  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon Mr Jeffery.  You have nine minutes, Mr Jeffery.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, if one looks at the origins of Legislatures and in particular the European Parliaments, the main power that they had was to grant funds to the Executive or to the King or the Monarchy in those particular cases.  They were able at least in the beginning in a limited way to perform some kind of check over the Executive.  If one looks at history again, King Charles I of England tried to rule his country for a long time without Parliament.  Eventually he had to call Parliament because he needed more money.  The result in the end was a civil war between the King and Parliament, which resulted in Parliament winning, England becoming a Republic and Charles I losing his head.  Eventually the Monarchy was invited back but it was on the terms of Parliament.

Budget debates are a time for reflection, a time for reviewing the past conduct of the Executive and the administration and making proposals regarding the programme of Government, and how the money is to be spent in the coming financial years.

Now one of the main changes between now and the previous budget debate that we had last year, is the coming into effect of the new Constitution.  The new Constitution is a uniquely South African document.  It moves away from the old Westminster system and sets up Governments of Provincial and National Unity.

Just to respond to one of the issues raised by the hon Mr Haygarth, regarding who is the official opposition, one of the things one sees in the new Constitution, especially in the transitionary phase until 1999, is that the different political parties have different political views and programmes, but are able to co-operate on joint programmes for the good of the country.  If one follows the National Party's argument about their being the official opposition, presumably if the hon Mr Bartlett had remained in the Provincial Cabinet, that would make the hon Mr Burrows the leader of the opposition and the hon Mr Wessel Nel as Chief Whip of the largest opposition party, whipping himself and Mr Burrows.  So really I think that shows the absurdity of the National Party's position and the fact that they actually find it difficult to grasp and to come to terms with new ideas and new procedures.

A central pillar of the new Constitution is the concept of co-operative Government.  This concept provides us with a unique attempt to deal with conflict between the different spheres of Government.  Local Government, Provincial Government, National Government.

One of the main bodies responsible for co-operative governance is the National Council of Provinces, which at a National level, allows both Local Governments and Provincial Governments direct access in the decision making process, the review process and the Legislature passing process.

In this Province we come from a fairly troubled past, a fairly troubled recent past.  Immediately after the 1994 elections the ANC and the IFP found it difficult to communicate with each other.  Because of the fact that the Provincial Government was led by the IFP and the National Government was led by the ANC, there were difficulties in the normal tensions that would exist between those structures.  Those were extended into different party positions and party pressures.  You had attempts in the Province to try and expand the powers of the Province.  We had lengthy debates over the passing of a Provincial Constitution, lengthy wrangling over that.  We have had attempts to pass legislation that was not within the Province's competence, like the Ingonyama Trust Amendment Act, the Electoral Act.  We have come from that past.

I submit that we have made considerable progress.  That we have in the last few months or year seen the ANC and the IFP working together for the good of the Province, and a new programme coming forward.

It is to the credit of the IFP, that whilst they opposed the new Constitution they are now fully participating in it.  That the National Council of Provinces' process in the Province is running well, with proper attention given by this House to attendance at NCOP committees, and at meetings and plenaries, and to discussing matters that are coming from NCOP.  I think that is very much to the credit of the IFP.  I think it is a poor reflection of the National Party, that whilst they voted for the new Constitution the performance of the Western Cape, the Province led by the National Party, is nowhere near that of KwaZulu-Natal in the NCOP process.

We have had a difficult piece of legislation in NCOP, the Council of Traditional Leaders Bill, but we have been able as a Province to debate it, discuss it, come up with the position and finally deal with it in the way that we should have.  The Bill was passed by the National Council of Provinces, it has become law and again it is to the credit of the IFP that whilst they opposed that Bill, the Province is participating in that Council and in fact the Deputy Chair of the Council, is a traditional leader from the Province.

With the Ingonyama Trust Amendment Bill we had problems, as I said earlier, in the beginning with the Province trying to claim that it had the power to pass legislation on that matter.  We had a court case which was settled but since then we have moved forward.  We were able to work together and eventually the mandate that this Province gave its delegation in the National Council of Provinces was unanimous.  Hopefully we will be able to work together in setting up the Board that should be administering the trust.

There is still thorny and controversial issues ahead.  There is the question of rural Local Government, the question of the land tenure system in traditional areas but, I would appeal to the House and I believe that we can do it as we have shown in the recent past, let us work together in trying to overcome those problems and reach compromises and find solutions, that everybody can be happy with.  Let us make use of NCOP to put as much input as we can into the National Legislative process, which is what it is there for.  So let us not sit here and complain about National matters, let us make use of NCOP to actually put those issues on the agenda.

For those parties, like the National Party and the DP who do not have special delegates coming from this chamber, they have permanent delegates to raise those issues for them, although in the case of certain parties, there are difficulties regarding where those permanent delegates are actually from geographically.

We should also look at how improvements can be made.  There are some problems in NCOP as it is a new structure at a National level regarding the administration of the whole body but let us try and make, as we are doing, constructive suggestions on how improvements should be made.  Let us make sure also that as a Province we participate fully and properly.  Let us overcome the communication problems that there may be between this House and the Executive.  We need to be getting briefed about MINMEC meetings so that the special delegates who attend and those are special delegates representing this Legislature, whether they be members of the Cabinet or not.  Let us speak with the same voice as far as representing the interests of the Province.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, we have got an enormous task in this Province.  The enormous task is there because of the legacy of ~apartheid~ and to be fair to the National Party it is not just ~apartheid~, it is the whole question of white domination and colonialism that went on before that.  That is something that is not going to be able to be corrected in a few years, it is going to take a lot of effort, it is going to take a lot of time.  You have got the psychological legacy that racial domination has left on people.  You have got the disparities in skills, resources etcetera.

If we are going to overcome those problems and make an impact on people's lives, we need to be working together and I think that the path we have been going on bodes well for the future.  I would hope that we can continue on that path.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Jeffery.  My revised list, Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I did not think I would ever have the opportunity to rise immediately after the hon member who just sat down and to compliment him on a very positive speech.  You see, I cease to be amazed of how the parliamentary system works and especially how over time it moderates people and causes them to become good parliamentarians.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  INTERJECTION!

MR G S BARTLETT:  I am complimenting the hon member.  I would like at least that he should let me do so without interruption, otherwise I will turn on him, because I can.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  If you could draw to the hon member's attention to the fact that I have not been interrupting him, it was the hon Dr Sutcliffe and possibly Mr Bartlett should have his eyes tested.

MR G S BARTLETT:  All right.  He is wasting my time, Mr Speaker, I understand him.  We will talk about it later.

Mr Speaker, I have listened very carefully to the debate so far.  I must say there were times when I got very frustrated and a little bit depressed.  On the other hand, especially today there have been some very positive speeches.  I am sorry the hon member Mr Meer is not here, because I thought he also made a very positive speech and I wanted to compliment him on it.  He clearly came out and said that Government Executives have a clear responsibility and that they cannot avoid living up to that responsibility.

The hon member, Mr Jeffery has said that the new Constitution clearly spells out the roles of committees and of the National Council of Provinces.  With this structure, I am sure, that while we may be going through difficult times at present, the ground rules and the foundations have been set in South Africa for us to develop into an immensely prosperous and wonderful country.  Which of course we have been in the past, but a country which will uplift all its people, so that the disadvantaged in the future will be properly catered for.

I want to talk about ministerial responsibility and the problem which I perceive and see often on TV, of where Ministers, of especially the National Government, fail to understand their role.

You know, one of the crimes that is receiving an awful lot of attention these days is rape.  A few weeks ago the women of this country decided, especially in Gauteng, but they came from all over I believe, that they were going to have a demonstration to show the nation, that the women were fed up with rape and they decided that they would march on John Vorster Square in Johannesburg.

Now John Vorster Square, as you know, is the main police headquarters.  Now what happened, the politicians realising ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Like you.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Not like me because I did not participate in that protest march.  The politicians whose responsibility it is here in this country today to get control of crime, to get control of rape, what did they do?  They were seen right in the forefront of this mass of protesting women marching to John Vorster Square.  There was the Deputy President Thabo Mbeki, there was the Premier of Gauteng, Tokyo Sexwale, there was the Minister of Correctional Institutions, Minister Mzimela right in the forefront.  They were with the women protesting for Government action to stop rape.

That protest was against the Government of the day.  That protest was saying to Government "Stop rape in South Africa".  The Minister should not have been leading it because if they were leading it what were they doing?  They were leading a protest against their own administration.  How ludicrous and ridiculous could it be.

But you see, this is the failure of the ANC and to a degree the IFP.  Whenever they run into trouble they blame it on the so-called "legacy of the past," the legacy of ~apartheid~ and they fail to stand up and say, "Yes, it is my responsibility as Minister of Police to take control of the situation".

You know, we must talk about the legacy of the past.  The day is coming when we are going to face an election and the people are going to ask, "What about the legacy of the past - the past five years?"  By 1999 the people will ask: "what is the legacy of the ANC administration?"  The answer will be, corruption, crime, violence!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  Now these hon members may chirp as much as they like but the people will not be fooled.  Already the people are rumbling.  They rumbled in the march.  The ANC leaders tried to show solidarity with the people but the people are not stupid.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker.

MR G S BARTLETT:  I am not going to take a question from that hon member so he can sit, Mr Speaker.

MR J H JEFFERY:  I just wanted to ask him if he was going to apply for amnesty before the cut-off date.

AN HON MEMBER:  You are not the Speaker.

AN HON MEMBER:  Did you apply for amnesty?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order?  Order! Order!

MR G S BARTLETT:  Did I apply for amnesty?  This is a very interesting point, I am glad he asked that question.  I tell the hon member before God, I have no reason to apply for amnesty, but I noticed that the total National Executive Council of the ANC has decided to ask for amnesty.  Now why?

You see, Mr Speaker, we talk about violence in this country, the violence of the past.  What about the violence of the present.  I want to say in this Parliament, two weeks ago five masked men with balaclavas over their head, we know they are ANC members, beat up our chairman of our fourth branch we formed in Mpumalanga and in Georgedale.

AN HON MEMBER:  We were trained by you.

MR G S BARTLETT:  I wish to record in this Parliament, that since the last time I addressed this Parliament on this issue, three more of our members have been shot dead in Mpumalanga.  Three houses have been burnt down.  One of the attackers on one house was an IFP supporting policeman who was shot dead during the attack.  He was one of the attackers.

AN HON MEMBER:  You reap what you sow.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Now amongst the blacks in ~Mpumalanga~, loyal South African citizens, they say the struggle still continues, that the struggle goes on because freedom has not come to South Africa.

I am going to say to the ANC, one of their councillors in ~Mpumalanga~ is intimidating a woman who belongs to a church and who runs a creche on private ground.  This councillor is intimidating her, because her son happens to belong to the National Party and because he, the councillor promised the ANC Women's League during the election that they would be able to use the creche as a place to hold their meetings, which the church refuses to allow.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, the ANC Women's League.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  I will tell you afterwards.  Do not waste my time.  You should have listened.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Let us have order.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Give the hon member a chance to speak.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It looks like there is a point of order.  Can I check, Mr Bartlett if there is a point of order?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the hon member Mr Bartlett, is abusing the privilege of this House to make wild allegations against the ANC and I think he should withdraw those.  Five men in balaclavas ...

MR V A VOLKER:  That is not a point of order. 

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I want to tell the hon member all this has been reported to the police.  The Security Branch came over immediately but I want to say to that hon member ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, it shows how little that hon members knows.  There is a Special National Investigation Task Group that is looking after these political actions.  If the hon member wants to speak to me afterwards, I will give her all the facts.  We know who is doing this.  The people on the ground also know who is doing it and the strange thing is that our members say, every time the ANC or the IFP attack us, our stature grows in the township.

I want to refer to the hon member Mohlomi, whom I believe is a member of the Labour Union movement.

AN HON MEMBER:  You are not a Minister, do not surmise.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Now I want to tell that hon member that I once carried a union card, I have still got it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.  Which Union?

MR G S BARTLETT:  The United Autobile Workers of Canada.  Yes, I worked in a factory at the bench and I carried a union card for two and a half years.  I want to say to that hon member a lot of what he said, I agreed with.  You have got to have unions, there has got to be a fair labour practice.  But I want to ask that hon member, because he referred to Mrs Thatcher, whether he knows what destroyed the Labour Party in Britain and why Mrs Thatcher won?  I was in Britain in the House of Commons, shortly after I was elected to Parliament in 1974, and over a drink in the pub in Parliament, I was speaking to a labour union man of the Labour Party.  He said to me, "I want to tell you, my father was a labour union man.  He belonged to the union".  He said, "I am a union man.  My whole life I have been labour man, I fight for the workers, I fight for their rights.  That is why I am a member of the Labour Party".  Then he said to me, "Now that you know what I am, I will now tell you what I am not".  He said, "I am not a member of a Communist Party".  He said, "The communists are destroying the labour movement in Britain".  The communist party hijacked the labour union in Britain and that led to the downfall of the Labour Party when Mrs Thatcher took over.

It is a lesson to the hon member, and I speak as a so-called "comrade" of almost 50 years ago.  In 1948, when that hon member was probably not even born, I carried a union card in Canada, where I worked amongst workers for about two and a half years.  So I do understand what the workers' problems are all about.

AN HON MEMBER:  We need you to apply for amnesty.  [LAUGHTER]

MR G S BARTLETT:  That hon member needs to apply for amnesty.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You have one more final minute.  The real final minute.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I want to conclude on a positive note.  In this Parliament amongst all parties we have wonderful people, men and women.  We have got the new Constitution, our committees are starting to work.  We can build this Province.  It is the greatest Province.  It is the most beautiful and the most beautiful people live in it.

I want to say to the hon Premier in his absence, but there are only three Ministers from this side, and none on that side, which is a pity.  Mr Speaker, I want to say to the hon Premier and his Cabinet that this Parliament will hold them responsible.  As the hon Mr Meer said, it is our job to monitor the Executive and what I am so pleased about is that in the committee work, party politics does not matter.  We are working for the greater community, and that is what we must do because it is this watchdog role of this Parliament, regardless of our political backgrounds, that is important.  If we work together and where we see injustices, where we see corruption, where we see incompetence, we must bring it to the fore.  We must bring it to the fore and we must ensure that the Government is truly working efficiently and spending the nearly R17 billion the hon member Mr Meer says we have got, spending it efficiently so that the people can really see that we are going forward "phambili", instead of "phansi", downward.  We have got to do that and I am sure if we carry on working in this way, regardless of the difficulties, this Province will be the shining star not only in this South Africa but also in the whole of Southern Africa.  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Bartlett.  I now have the honour to call upon the Democratic Party, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the process of establishing a budget for a province does not start in the province.  It starts with the Financial and Fiscal Commission reviewing the allocations and making certain recommendations.  The Constitution that we all accept states as follows in section 213:

	A province's equitable share of revenue raised nationally is a direct charge against the National Revenue Fund.

A province's equitable share, fair share of revenue, is a direct charge.  19% we received for 25% of the population.  The more social services you have to offer in education, and housing, and health and welfare, the less money you have available because we are not getting our equitable share.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Take it from the Western Cape.

MR R M BURROWS:  I am about to say that too.  Section 215 of the Constitution carries on and says:

	National, provincial and municipal budgets and budgetary processes must promote transparency, accountability, and the effective financial management of the economy, debt and the public sector.

That constitutional obligation rests on us to enforce IT on the Executive.  We must enforce transparency, accountability and effective financial management.

One of the problems that we have I think in this House, I am glad that Mrs Downs yesterday made mention of it, is that this does not promote transparency.  This White Book promotes confusion.  I would really urge with respect the Treasury to immediately initiate a process so that this House can work with some sense of reality.

The comparative figures in here compare the White Book of last year to the White Book of this year and there is no comparison.  From department to department, from programme to programme the amounts differ staggeringly.  Really, when we come and we are told you are spending X amount last year and Y amount this year therefore you are going to have an increase of 2%-4%, and we suddenly discover that in a department we have actually gone down 12% on what was received by the end of March, then we are being confused and confounded and there is no transparency.

AN HON MEMBER:  And conned.

MR R M BURROWS:  And conned, I like the word.  No, not Con Botha.  [LAUGHTER]  Let me also say that I have a fundamental difficulty and the Democratic Party has a difficulty with the Budget Council and how it operates.  Not the Budget Council per se, which I understand consists essentially of the Minister of Finance and officials from the Treasury, who gather in representations from the various departments, assess them, create a prioritised programme and move towards final drafts of the White Book.

The difficulty I have is that the Budget Council this year had two representatives, I presume they were representatives, of the Finance Portfolio Committee on it.  Messrs Aulsebrook and Dr Sutcliffe.  They served on that Budget Council.

In a very real sense that made them part of the budget process of drafting the budget.  So when they come here and they make speeches they are already committed to the budget.  They themselves have become part of an executive process.  So they lose their watchdog role.  I really, with respect, and I will say this directly, I am sorry he is not here at the moment, to the Premier, I really think as Minister of Finance he has got to rethink that Budget Council composition.

Yes, by all means the Portfolio Committee on Finance has to be involved, but what we cannot afford to do is have our members sucked into a process which actually robs them to a degree of their independence.  I make no aspersions on the two individuals concerned.  I think the process is wrong.

Central to the budget is to question where the money is being spent.  With respect, that is the process that the Finance Portfolio Committee has gone through for the past three weeks.  Yes, the Democratic Party has been criticised in this House and outside for making various statements about how we will oppose the budget unless various things happen.  I am going to touch on that in a second.

You need to know that one week before Trevor Manuel published his budget in Cape Town on 12 March, on 5 March the Democratic Party released a budget proposal, clearly setting out where we would spend nationally - the priorities of a budget.  We debated and we went in to the Portfolio Committee and had discussions and at the end of the day we found the central budget wanting and we voted against the central budget, because it did not allocate enough money to the provinces.  I have heard everybody in this House say not enough money to this Province, but you did not vote against the National budget and neither did you.  It is very interesting.

In the Western Cape, and I am glad Dr Sutcliffe raised it, in the Western Cape they are into deficit spending, which is constitutionally unacceptable.  I do not how Minister Meiring down there is doing it, but who opposed the budget in the Western Cape?  The ANC voted against it.  Part of the Government of the Western Cape, they voted against the budget, so did the Democratic Party, because we do not believe:

(a)	That you should be doing deficit spending; and
(b)	The money received from Central Government was unacceptably low.

I want to turn now to the Democratic Party's areas of concern with this budget and some of them have been spoken about.  Mr Aulsebrook would like to savage us, it is like that famous quotation and Mr Aulsebrook knows it, I think.  Being attacked by Mr Aulsebrook is like being savaged by a dead sheep.  [LAUGHTER]  

AN HON MEMBER:  It is not my quotation.  It is not Rajbansi's either.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.  He does not have that copyright, but is it parliamentary to refer to a member even indirectly as a dead sheep?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I would cite Mr Rajbansi's own words, he did not call Mr Jeffery a pipsqueak he compared him to one.  I am merely making a comparison.

Let me just say in the three areas of concern that we raised in our budget.  In the R158 million in the Premier's Discretionary Fund.  Here I wish to distance myself from what Mr Rajbansi said about the Democratic Party yesterday.  We sat in this chamber, the Premier was there and we asked him questions.  Mr Rajbansi was slightly economic with the truth as he sometimes is, when he said we did not raise questions.  We did, we asked specific questions and we received answers.  For that we thank the Premier.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.  Is the member entitled to mislead this House because those tapes are available?

MR R M BURROWS:  I would be very pleased to have them produced and transcribed for Mr Rajbansi's edification.  Let me give you an example.  I asked the Premier why did the Education Department not know - the Department, I am not questioning the Minister, about the money that was supposedly to be allocated to classroom rehabilitation and the culture of learning.  The Premier's answer was it is sometimes useful to promote competition.  I think those were his words.  We can check the tape, but along those lines.  That calling on the Department to produce a business plan to allow other people to come in to produce a business plan promotes competition, is the words I think he used.  So there was questioning.  I am simply saying from the Democratic Party's point of view, we did raise these matters.

I have a very grave concern that the money allocated there for classroom rehabilitation and culture of learning, takes no account of the fact that the Education Department is short of R100 million to pay for building programmes already on the go now.  So why is it sitting in a Discretionary Fund of the Premier?  I have doubts on that.  Or the question of the rehabilitation of community access roads.

We went to a budget press conference after the Minister of Finance made his speech in ~Ulundi~, and the Minister of Transport at that press conference expressed unhappiness about the amount of money allocated for community access roads.  The money is suddenly in the Premier's budget and the Minister of Transport was not even aware of it.  His budget had been cut from 28 million to 25 million and money has appeared in the Premier's Discretionary Fund which will now be transferred to Finance.  So we have a problem.

We, I think, we are in broad agreement with the Premier that the money has to be used for the promotion of the disadvantaged communities.  There we have no disagreement.  We have a disagreement if you like, in the bookkeeping exercise that puts it in a discretionary fund rather than in a line department, which can be approved and voted on by this House with transparency.

The second one is the ~Ulundi~ buildings.  I am glad to see the report flowing from the Budget Committee, in which it proposes a cut to R30 million from the R70 million initially proposed.  

AN HON MEMBER:  R40 million.

MR R M BURROWS:  To R40 million.  My apologies, R30 million cut.  I have been criticised for sitting in Internal Arrangements Committees and promoting separation of the Legislature and the Executive, and then damned for saying I will not provide the funds or will not vote the funds to do that.  You know, the point that I want to make to the Premier, because it was in a press statement of his that he criticised me, the Premier obviously did not see copies of the plans devised by a provincial architect, and submitted to the Internal Arrangements Committee, for the division of the building in ~Ulundi~, so that it could be used by the Executive and the Legislature.  Those plans were submitted to us.  We saw those plans.  We approved those plans.  We were happy to go ahead with those plans.  Then nothing happens and four months later we suddenly here there are new buildings going up.

Now let us clearly understand.  We have copies of those plans.  We can give them to you, Mr Premier.  We are saying let us sensibly use that building.  We are saying we can make use of it.  It is not a sense of pique that people must go out and spend taxpayer's money, not Government money, taxpayer's money because they think they are being evicted from the building.  We said share the building, but provide the security and the architect came up with such a scheme.

The third area is the Discretionary Peace Funds, and that has been referred to by, amongst others, members of the ANC.  We agreed funds should be allocated to victims of the struggle that has occurred in KwaZulu-Natal, particularly since 1985 up till last year, where thousands have been killed, buildings destroyed.  But do you know what, the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Committee created by this House by statute has as one of its programmes the funding of the victims of violence in KwaZulu-Natal.  It is a multi-party committee.  Every party in this House sits on it plus business, plus the unions, plus churches and a whole set of other organisations.  Why do you not give them the money to decide?

I am afraid the only answer I come up with is because you want the money to be seen to be coming from the ANC and the IFP.  It is the only answer I can come up with.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is why it is a slush fund.

MR R M BURROWS:  Let us agree that the last thing we should have and we have got it from the Finance Committee, is a letter which actually says that the Chairperson of the IFP nationally, and the Chairperson of the ANC nationally can get together and can decide how the process of spending occurs.  That we cannot agree with.  We are not saying that it should not go to the victims of violence.  We are saying that is exactly where it should go.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You have 30 seconds.

MR R M BURROWS:  You know, there are many, many other things that we can spend money on in this Province sensibly and wisely.  We can spend it on providing toilets to 500 schools who have no toilets.  Can you imagine what that is like?  No water, 2 000 schools.  No subsidy for some of the welfare organisations.

Mr Speaker, there are many areas I am going to touch on in each of the votes.  Hopefully I will have enough time to say something on each of the votes, but I am going to pick up on particular areas.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  I now wish to call upon Inkosi Mlaba and you have nine minutes, Ndabezitha.

INKOSI Z M MLABA: TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, when you talk about a budget in regard to a Government which is democratic you would be making a big mistake if you left out the ways that have been laid out for the traditional leaders to take in this new Government so that this country can developed.

In this Province of ours a large portion thereof is under the Tribal Authorities.  The power the work and the role of the ~Amakhosi~ and their tribal Authorities, together with the Regional Authorities, together with the Original Authorities is placed under the ~Amakhosi~ and ~Iziphakanyiswa~ Act, which was past by the old KwaZulu Government.

This Act gives the ~Amakhosi~ together with the Minister, that is the Minister of Traditional Affairs, powers which effect a lot of things.   Another thing which is important is the power which ~Amakhosi~ have to give land to build to the people that want to use it in the name of the tribe.  Land in these areas is controlled by the people that live on it, jointly in other words communally owned by the tribe.  The work of the Inkosi is to grant permission which is legal, which permission gives the right to use the land.  The land which falls under the ~Amakhosi~, all of this land falls under the Ingonyama Trust.  Like wise the ~Ingonyama~ Trust can not do anything without contacting the Tribal Authority of the Inkosi of that particular area.

The problems that we see in these area of that if land ownership rights are not clarified, development in these areas is made many difficult indeed.  Traditional leaders who sit on the new councils known as Regional Councils, by virtue of exercising their right, because of the positions so that they can oversee that the politicians agree as to how to develop their areas in terms of the Constitution.  

Also in this Province of ours, with this Government of ours we have been able to built a chamber for traditional leaders.  This chamber was built by the ~Amakhosi~ which were chosen from the Regional Authorities.  This chamber has the power to advise the Government of the Province in regard to things and issues which affect the traditions of the people.  There is no law which will be passed which affects the traditions without consulting the House of Traditional Leaders. 

Something else that is important Mr Speaker, was done by the National Government, and that was to form a National Council of Traditional Leaders.  This body has the power to advise the National Government in regard to things of origin which maybe effected in Parliament.  All the Provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders send their representatives to this National Council.  

Mr Speaker, it is our desire that in this country of ours there should be respect for all structures which exists, and that all structures should be given their rights according to the Constitution of this country.  ~Amakhosi~ together with Councillors and Local Governments must start now to work together, irrespective of which organisation the particular councillor comes from.  Councillors must be given an opportunity to be free to work for the people without discrimination based on organisations. 

The formation of the House of Traditional Leaders brings with it an opportunity that says all the things that were wrong in the time of the old Government, in regard to who in fact should be the traditional leaders those things will be rectified, their powers regarding where they start and where they end.  The time has arrived for all the places that are under the tribal authority of the ~Amakhosi~, to open their doors to anybody, it does not matter which organisation you belong to, which organisation you prefer and this should be done freely.  If this structure of the ~Amakhosi~ stands in between and does not discriminate it must accept all parties that means freedom for the people has arrived, violence who also be finished forever.  

In conclusion Mr Speaker, even though I accept the budget, I want to say that in order that we work together freely between the Councillors, the Government, and ~Amakhosi~, in order for this to become a reality the Government must increase the amount of money and these places that were ignored by the previous Government must be developed.  In these areas there was nothing Mr Speaker, development appears to be something for the towns only.  So we are asking that as far as this budget is concerned all the money that is left over in the budget of this Province, should be sent to the rural areas so that those areas may be developed so that they too live the kind of life that everybody in this country lives.  Thank you.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  ~Siyabonga~ ~Ximba~, I now wish to call upon Advocate Bawa for 15 minutes.

ADV I M BAWA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker and the hon members of this House.  I also reflect the concern that there is such a poor attendance when issues are discussed which are very important, that everybody should know about, but anyway that seems to be the prevalent situation both here and in the National Parliament.

I do not wish to raise the temperatures of this House or the temperature of any member of this House.  Therefore, I will confine myself to observations on certain aspects of the Constitution, which may differ from the observations made by other members of this House; particularly the hon member, Mr Jeffery.

Yesterday the hon Minister of Economic Affairs, Mr Jacob Zuma, rightly outlined the progressive state and nature of this Province.  He particularly laid his emphasis on the fact that this became possible because of the working harmony between the two main parties, the ANC and IFP under the Government of National Unity.  He praised the Government of National Unity.

Undoubtedly, this provision of the Constitution, requiring that the party obtaining a certain number of seats or votes is entitled to be represented in the Government, is a very salutary one, and one that really helps to create harmony between the different parties.

This process is also of course carried over into the National Assembly, where you have the Government of National Unity.  That is slightly broken as a result of the National Party withdrawing from there.

Had it not been for the Government of National Unity in the Centre, in the National Assembly, and if in 1994 the power was taken completely by the ANC, minus all other political parties, constituting a Government on its own and bearing in mind that at that point in time one can rightly say there would have been much greater difficulty in running this country, because of the lack of experience, lack of know-how, due to lack of the training facilities that we require to run the country.  One would dread to think what could have happened if that had been the situation!  

We know that the entire financial institutions, banking and building societies and all the resources of this country were owned and controlled by the white sector of the community.  As a result of the pressure exerted by them we had this Government of National Unity which prevented a situation developing into a chaotic condition.  So that goes to the credit of the Constitution providing for this.

What I am worried about is that in 1999 it appears that the ANC is set to, or hopes to, gain a greater majority than it already has in Parliament.

Now it can happen or it may not happen, I do not know.  We do not know what the future is going to be in that regard.  If it does happen I have always maintained that the Government having a powerful majority can run the business as its own, as in fact it has been doing even now.  Effectively it becomes a one-party Government; one can hardly call it a multi-party democracy.  With minor parties there making all the noise and sound about particular problems and issues that the National Assembly is promoting, carries no weight at all in the end.  The National Assembly carries the day because of the majority they have.  They can even amend the Constitution if they have a two-thirds majority, which they hope for and which they probably will have.

Secondly, I would like to touch upon the situation of the Traditional Authorities in this Province.  It is amazing to see, well it is really not amazing to see, bearing in mind that the traditional leaders and authorities and the chiefs have never been in the favour of the ANC.  They, the ANC, have always opposed that institution.  We well know that at the deliberation at the World Centre they were strenuously opposed to have even the King being present there.  They did not want to know, did not want to have anything to do with these traditional authorities and chiefs, and even the King.

The Constitution, when you look at it, Chapter 12, one needs to read it carefully to see what it actually does provide for, and I ask permission to read this particular brief section.  Section  211(1) of Chapter 12:

	The institution, status and role of traditional leadership, according to customary law, are recognised, subject to the Constitution.

And I want to emphasise the words, "subject to the Constitution".  One can see, the conflict between the Constitution and the customary law that may prevail.  There are many areas where there are conflicts between these two systems.  It goes on:

(2)	A traditional authority that observes a system of customary law may function subject to any applicable legislation and customs, which includes amendments to, or repeal of, that legislation or those customs.

So here again the traditional laws and traditional authorities and traditional customs are at the mercy of the National Parliament who can amend the customs, they can amend by legislation and even remove the provisions of this.  So these are the provisions made.

(3)	The courts must apply customary law when that law is applicable, subject to the Constitution and any legislation that specifically deals with customary law.

This makes it very clear the very limited power that traditional leaders have and one may go a little further down to see that that is the situation:

212(1)	National legislation may provide for a role for traditional leadership as an institution at local level on matters affecting local communities.

So it has virtually practically no real power of any kind.  But that is besides the point.  What I am trying to say is that this system can be gradually corroded, if I may use that term, by a process of legislation.  There is a need for this particular system.  Bear that in mind.

What I also would like to observe, a very critical omission in this Constitution is on the position of the King of this Province.  There is nothing in the Constitution.  A provision similar to the one that we had in the interim Constitution which provided for the role, function and status of the Zulu King.  There is nothing in the new Constitution.  That is an ominous omission.  I think that matter needs to be looked into carefully by those who are concerned about this particular issue and institution.

We have the House of Traditional Leaders, but that really does not carry the day any further in this particular respect.  As we know, the role of the traditional leaders in terms of this Constitution is confined to local matters.  So the King features nowhere at all.

It is necessary that a small commission should be appointed by this House to consider the power, the status and the institution of His Majesty the King.  To legalise his position in terms of a law.  We have got nothing of that kind on the statute book and that is a grave omission.  The King simply functions de facto not de jure as it were.

Next, I would also like to touch briefly on the National Council of Provinces.  I have a completely different perception of the powers of a National Council and its function, than the one that was painted by hon member Mr Jeffery.  When this proposal came at the time of the new Constitution, there was a great euphoria about it; it was that we were really getting something, you know, some very substantial concession was being made in regard to the provinces!

When you look at the actual provisions in the Constitution, the powers of National Council are limited and are subject finally to the Constitution itself.  I will deal in a moment with that.

Section 75 deals with laws that are nationally applicable.  They are mainly provided to us, to the provinces, to go over it and make suggestions if they can.  I am constrained to say that I cannot see what real contribution we can make in respect of those Bills which are made under Section 75.  Those Bills are drafted or those Acts are enacted and prepared by the lawyers of the State and they have gone into the previous laws, amendments made in terms of the new Constitution and other provisions.  So there is very little substance that we in the Province or the NCOP of our Province can really take pleasure in.

In terms of Section 76, those are the laws that will affect the provinces and we have a right of saying something about those things.  Ultimately, however, when we look at the provisions, whatever this Province might say in respect of their own needs and requirements and their objections, if the National Assembly decides to go ahead they can do so.  So there is no guarantee in terms of the Constitution that your voice, your objections, your desires to incorporate other issues or other amendments can be carried through by the National Assembly.  There is no such provision at all.  In fact the provision provides to the contrary that the National Assembly can reject if it so wishes.

So, ultimately, all it boils down to is that you have a get-together, you discuss and you make your contribution.  It creates a happier atmosphere undoubtedly.  It may even lead to some contributions, affecting the Province itself.  Ultimately there is no real power in the NCOP.  I am constrained to say that this is a great delusion that we may be suffering from.  I think the ANC has been a master, or whoever drafted this Constitution, is a master of illusion, in respect of this!

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

ADV I M BAWA:  We must not suffer from the fact that this is anything but a system to co-opt other parties into collaborating.  There is nothing else.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Bawa.  I would like to now call upon Miss Nahara and you have nine minutes.

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will only talk about the gender and Government.

The Constitution of this country makes provision for gender equality in all fields.  It is sometimes amazing when you hear people saying, "Oh what can we do, we are forced to promote women".  I want to make this one quite clear.  The provisions that are in this Constitution did not just come about as a gift to the women because we are women or maybe we look smart.  Some of our women here have been involved in very serious matters in this country.  

Some of our women here in this country, fought side by side with our menfolk.  Some of them have been picketing, we have been fighting for the rights of the workers.  When that happened nobody used to say "Why are women there.  What are they doing there"?  It was all nice, but suddenly when women have to be put in places of importance where there is decision making, then you hear people say it is because of Beijing.  Now this is not a gift to us, it is not a favour.  We have worked for it and we deserve to be in decision making places.

When the South African Government went to Beijing we were not only going to represent the women of South Africa only, but we were representing the Government, a new Government of National Unity of this country.

During the debates in Beijing when people were tabling their complaints what the Governments were doing, where they were being undermined and so forth, I want to assure you we were the only people who tabled a confidence.  The commitment of our Government for the empowerment of women and for the elimination of all forms of discrimination and violence against women.

As far as the platform for action on Gender Equity in the post-Beijing era, I would like just to point out what we have at the moment as a start.  I think we have been able to set up the structures that we are talking about, that is the Gender Commission.

The Gender Commission is now in place with 11 members.  That is at National level.  Some of these members will be assigned to the provinces.  I will not elaborate on that.  I will be happy to say we have quite a few people who come from this Province who are part of the Gender Commission.  That makes some of us quite happy as a Province.

The other step, some of the other structures that are in place also at National Parliament, we have the Multi-party Women's Caucus.  We have the Office of the Status of Women.  The Office of the Status of Women plays a co-ordinating role in Parliament, between Parliament and the departmental gender desks or units.  It is also to facilitate communication with other relevant structures like the provinces and civil society and other relevant organisations.

In our Province here in KwaZulu-Natal, we have not been left behind.  Last year the Premier's Portfolio Committee appointed a Multi-party Gender Subcommittee led by the Chairperson of Committees of this Legislature, to lead the process whereby we can be able to formulate legislation on gender equality for the Province, because we have discovered that the Gender Act nationally does not make provisions or it does not really indicate clearly what provinces should be doing.  It is on this basis that the Premier's Portfolio felt that we need to do something as well, as a Provincial Government.

At the departmental levels we have under the DG's office a Gender Forum, whereby all the departments have a representative.  This forum will be working on the policies on gender equality in different departments.  Early this year when we were at the Drakensberg where we had a CPA workshop, we met as female parliamentarians of this Legislature, where we discussed the establishment of the Multi-party Women's Caucus.

Two members of this Legislature were appointed to lead the process and the consultation to establish such a structure.  That is also in progress.  The aim of establishing these structures at National level and at Provincial level is mainly to enable women, not only to have women co-ordination with parliamentarians only.  We want to see a situation whereby women parliamentarians are able also to liaise with women outside this Parliament.  We should be able to work with women all over the country wherever they are, in NGOs, in rural areas and elsewhere.

This will allow women in this country to speak with one voice.  We would also like to see that such forums will also assist us as Government, whereby programmes of empowerment of women and others are not only based at parliamentary level, as one has experienced in other countries.  When you talk about empowerment of women you are talking about very few women maybe in high positions and so on.

What we would like to see as women of South Africa is that empowerment of women is not only based where a handful of people are but, it goes right down to the people who really need it, which is our women who are illiterate and some of them living in very serious and bad conditions.  That is where we think we need the empowerment to reach.

So the aims of these structures that we are building both at National level, and Provincial level is actually to address the imbalances, the gender imbalances that exist at the moment.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to say as women in this Legislature we are going to do everything we can to make these forums a success.  I want to say to you, we are really prepared that in our next election, which is 1999, we are not only just going to come back as 16 women here, but we might actually be coming back having the Premier of this country being a women.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Miss Nahara.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will now call upon Mr Tarr.  Mr Tarr you have 15 minutes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is a great pleasure to follow on the hon member who has just spoken, because I must tell her that I share many of her sentiments and I certainly would like to see more women back in this Parliament after 1999.

I must say, and I do not want to sound patronising in any way, but my experience of the women members of this Parliament is that they are generally speaking very conscientious, very reliable and very hard working and I think that perhaps does not fit all the other members quite as well.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I hear that I am in trouble, Mr Speaker, but I am talking about the women in general from the point of view of a Whip.

I would like to start off on a slightly philosophical note, and it is one which I think follows on to a large extent from what Mr Jeffery spoke about earlier on, and look back on the development of this Parliament over the last three years.  I think it has perhaps developed in a way which we did not expect, maybe some people did.

If members will throw their minds back, we started off in this Parliament in a very confrontational style.  Now this is perhaps something we inherited from the western democracies which we have looked at, their type of parliamentary systems.  We perhaps inherited it from the old parliamentary system which we had here.  What has actually happened over the years is that we have developed somewhat differently in this Parliament.  Perhaps, and I hope this is the case, is that we are developing our very own South African or African homespun model of the Parliamentary Institution.

In other words, what we appear to be doing more often than not, when there is a problem we are saying, "Let us not vote on it, let us go outside, let us talk about it.  Let us see if we can resolve this issue".  That generally has been the approach which we have taken.  We have not voted on many issues, this applies to our committees as well, rather we sit and we have spoken the matters through and more often than not, especially with NCOP as Mr Jeffery mentioned, we have been managing to find one another and reach consensus.

I certainly hope that as time goes on we are not going to lose this.  I think that with the problems we have in this Province, the problems we have in this country, the huge developmental issues which we have got to face, we cannot afford the petty nitpicking attitude which many Parliaments overseas do have.

A group of us, for example, recently visited the Canadian Parliament.  It is quite extraordinary, the pettiness to which members on opposite sides go in those Parliaments, to try and score points off one another, to no useful purpose whatsoever.  So I hope it is possible for us to continue in this line and develop our own homespun style of parliamentary democracy.  That does not mean to say that parties have got to lose their individuality.  Of course not, but it is the way of working together.

Then there is one other matter.  You know, it has been said to me by a number of people, that this parliamentary debate which is taking place right now is a talk shop.  You guys sit there and you talk for days and days and days.  The budget is already done, there is nothing you can do about the budget.  Pass it whether you like it or not.  There is nothing you can do.

Now I would like to talk about that for a moment.  The first thing is I think if members look at the Constitution, especially Section 114 of the Constitution, quite clearly this Parliament was not intended by the drafters of our Constitution to be a talk shop.  Quite clearly the drafters of the Constitution expected this Parliament to be very much an integral part of the running of the Province, or the country if we are looking at the National Parliament.  They expected this Parliament to exercise control over the functions of the Executive and they expect this Parliament to be part of the budgetary process.

I certainly hope that some programme will be drawn up in the months or weeks ahead whereby this Parliament together with the Ministers in fact can be drawn into the budgetary process in a more meaningful way, so that when we talk about next year's budget, the members in this House who are talking about next year's budget, have also had some say in the drafting of it.  That has happened to a limited extent, I concede that, but I believe that we should in fact even go further.

If our Parliament is not to be only a talk shop I think that, and it is a phrase that I have thought of myself, maybe there is a better one, we should look at creating a working Parliament.

I have listened to a lot of speeches by members in this House from both sides.  There have been a lot of good speeches made in this House.  There is in most issues consensus between all the parties but what happens to those good speeches?  Do they get translated into policy documents?  Do they get translated into action by anybody doing anything?  The answer is generally no.  We make those good speeches, we walk out of this House this afternoon.  We say to our colleagues, good speech there and that is it.  That is it, because if that is the case then we are the talk shop that people talk about.

If we are going to be a working Parliament how do we resolve that?  I think the first thing is we have got to look at our portfolio committees.  The chairpersons and members of those committees must realise that they actually enjoy and can exercise a lot of powers.

We must look at the working relationship between our portfolio committees and between our Ministers.  We do not want to develop an antagonistic relationship between the Ministers and the portfolio committees.  Sometimes there may be agreements, sometimes there may be a little bit of tension, but that is a healthy thing.  What we really need to do is to jointly formulate policy, jointly align our objectives and then the portfolio committee working together with a member of the Executive, we can in fact then work in a goal orientated way towards particular problems.  Many of which have been highlighted in this House today.

I would hope that perhaps as parties, as Parliament we can get together and put some structure to these sort of ideas, whereby the Minister and his portfolio committee align their objectives, set their objectives, clearly defined goals and then they can work on those goals.  Whether it is rural development, passing the legislation necessary to do it etcetera.

I would hope that by doing that we can then make sure that this Parliament is no longer a talk shop.  It is a working Parliament that actually does things and if people want things to get done, this is where they need to come.

There is one other issue which has cropped up so often in this debate, I am hesitant to raise it.  I really feel that it has been raised by so many members.  I would like to raise it as well and put a slightly different perspective.  That relates to our police.

First of all, we must understand that we inherited a police force from the past.  It was a police force that was very poorly trained to in fact combat crime.  It was a police force that was used mainly by the governing party then to enforce its own policies.  It was a police force that stood at the frontline, this policy that was developed at that stage of the so-called total onslaught policy.

So we developed a whole range or a whole police force, who in fact with the new South Africa, needed complete reorientation and a complete relook at whom they were and what they were supposed to be doing.

Quite clearly a lot of members in that old force were very poorly equipped to do it.  Some have gone, some are still there.  Many of those who are still there are inadequately trained to combat crime.  They still have not received the correct training.

I think that we as a Parliament, we need to now take a clear look at this.  For example, if we are serious about creating the type of police force we all want to see, we have actually got to throw some resources in.  You know what an ordinary constable receives?  An ordinary constable, his take home pay when all his deductions are off is less than R1 000,00 a month.  Now we expect a man who takes home, a man who is of marriageable age, who takes home less than R1 000,00 a month, we expect him to be a motivated policeman, we expect him to go out there and put his life on the line and we expect a lot more from that person.

I really think that the deal our police are getting is actually pathetic.  What we should be saying is we want to put a police force in place which all of us can look up to, which all of us feel protected by, but then we have got to be serious about it.  We have got to be serious about it and if we are serious about it then we actually need to start recruiting the right people, training the right people and for heaven sake pay them.  Paying them the sort of wage that will attract the right people there.

AN HON MEMBER:  Pay the Commissioner first.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Well, that is another matter.  I am not involved in the whole police debate and the whole Police Portfolio.  So I am just raising these as points, I am sure that Mr Cele would agree with a lot of the points I have raised here.  I think that is something we need to be looking at.

Then another thing, and this is now IFP policy, we believe that the police force would serve our needs much better if they were under control of this House.  Then members in this House, people in this Province would not feel so helpless when there are problems.  You go to the Commissioner and the Commissioner goes to someone in Pretoria and that is the end of your problem.

We would like to see them directly responsible to this House.  We can then budget.  We can then put the right people in place.  We can appoint the sort of people that Mr Cele would like to see there.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Well, we have our own Commissioner then.  We do not have to talk to someone in Pretoria or someone in Cape Town.  We have our own Minister right here.  We have our own Commissioner right here and then I believe we will start to get some sort of results.  Until we actually do that the lines of communication and the tiers of management and the whole police structure are so stretched out that many people at grass-roots level feel entirely helpless.

Of course in the IFP we would like to take it further, along the lines of the American model where a lot of the policing actually goes down to Local Government level.  That seems to be the most effective way to do it.

Mr Speaker, with those few words then I would be supporting the budget.  I certainly hope that in the year ahead we can look to creating a working Parliament and be taking some serious measures about our police system.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  We have fortunately arrived at the lunch hour.  We are therefore going to adjourn this House to 2 o'clock.  I would like to make this appeal.  In the morning we had to ring the bell three times because members were not sufficient for us to start with the business.  I do not think we intend doing the same, this time when we come back from lunch.  At 4 o'clock, at 16:00 we ought to be starting with the final business of today.  That is dealing with the inaugural part of the CPA.  If members want to go early it would be better that we come back early and we finish in time and by 4 o'clock we are ready to do that bit of work and then get finished with it.  It looks like somebody else has something else to say.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am looking at the speaker's list and it seems to me that we will probably finish the budget debate by about 3 o'clock, in which case we could then start the CPA meeting immediately after that and we would be finished by about four.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Whip, I really am very grateful for that.  That is why I am making this plea that if we could just please make it by 2 o'clock.  The House stands adjourned until 2 o'clock.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:37
	RESUMED AT 13:59

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  When we adjourned for lunch the next speaker on my speaker's list was to be Advocate Schutte.  You have 11 minutes, sir.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, just a week ago we celebrated the third anniversary of the first fully democratic elections to be held in this country.  I believe we had reason to celebrate that occasion, because it was in fact a culmination of a remarkable reform process which started some years ago but which was given final impetus by the February 1990 speech of F W de Klerk.

Regarding this process since 1989 there are three incontrovertible facts.  Firstly, F W de Klerk made it all possible.  Had it not been for his 2 February 1990 speech and his commitment to see it through after that, we would certainly not have seen the dramatic reforms of the early 1990s and the ANC would not have been in Government.  If there is one person the ANC must thank, then it is indeed F W de Klerk.

Secondly, F W de Klerk was not only successful in bringing about the initiatives, but he was also successful in securing the reform process and in delivering the reform process to its conclusion.  That was despite tremendous real threats and actions from the right wing and from the left side.  It took tremendous tenacity and almost super human effort to bring that about.

Thirdly, F W de Klerk could not have done more to ensure that the security forces acted within the law during his term of office.  Let me give you the examples.

AN HON MEMBER:  Which law?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  First of all, the establishment of the Goldstone Commission, an independent powerful judicial commission to investigate any allegation of untoward security actions.

Secondly, the Office of Serious Economic Offences was instituted to investigate with expedition allegations of corruption.

Thirdly, the Peace Accord structures was established, inter alia, also to monitor security force activities.

In the fourth instance, at the earliest possible opportunity he laid down the law to the security force generals, and he acted against certain of them when so advised.

These three incontrovertible facts jointly and severally make nonsense of the recent attacks on the integrity of F W de Klerk, particularly coming from certain TRC quarters.

The fact remains, that if it had not been for the initiatives of F W de Klerk this country would not have seen the dramatic reforms it has.  It just does not make any sense that he would have put a spoke into the wheels of his own reform process.  I believe that any reasonable person can only give him credit for what he has done to reform South Africa.

I believe that the question that we should now be debating is, do we have reason to rejoice as to what has happened to South Africa since the 1994 election?  I believe the sad fact is we have reason to lament, despite the massive election promises.  You will recall the poster with only a few words on, "Jobs, jobs, jobs.  Vote ANC".

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Despite that, unemployment is now at record levels.  We have at least 40% unemployment in this Province.  Where have the jobs gone?  The people out there are asking where have the jobs gone?  In this city alone, the people employed in the shoe industry has dropped from 7 500 to 4 800 in only three years.

I will tell you where the jobs have gone.  We have exported them.  We have exported the jobs to China and to Taiwan and even also to New Zealand and to Ireland where we import our butter and our meat from.

I believe we should also ask ourselves what is this Province doing to alleviate the unemployment problem?  Despite the fact that the interim Constitution and the final Constitution, specifically empowers the Provincial Government to grant industrial incentives, nothing has been done in this regard.  I believe that that is not good enough.

Glossy advertisements will not do.  Businessmen are hard-nosed.  They want to know what are the real benefits to them.  I also believe, that we do not only need incentives as far as the industrial sector is concerned, but also as far as development in the rural areas is concerned because that is the heartland of this Province.

The most basic function of a Government is to maintain law and order and to ensure the security of its citizens.

AN HON MEMBER:  Without killing and burying them.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  In this regard the ANC Government has failed miserably.  Serious crime has soared since 1994 and remains at very high levels.  Our murder rate is now 11 times the world average, and that means only one thing, that serious crime is totally out of control.  People are leaving the country because of crime.  People are not investing because of crime.  That was unheard of before.  I would like to ask what does the Government do in this regard?  What does the man in the street see what is happening?  If he puts on his radio, what does he hear?  He hears about crime and then he hears this whimpish slogan, "Do not do crime".  Do not do crime.

AN HON MEMBER:  They say it does not pay.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Is there anybody here who believes that that will have any impact whatsoever on a criminal?  Not at all.

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Then you must believe in Father Christmas as well.

AN HON MEMBER:  No fairy tales.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  No, we need strong action, we need action that will convince the man in the street and the criminal, that the Government means business with crime.

The same must also be said about this Province.  I believe that we have the opportunity.  The police must be seen more often, they must be seen at roadblocks, they must be seen to be prepared to do something about crime, and we should do something in this regard.

The sad fact is that the ANC Government had everything going for it.  It had the sympathy and the loyalty of the whole world that wanted us to succeed, and yet no considerable investment occurred.  The ANC Government has complete legitimacy to deal with crime and yet the crime rate is soaring.  The Government of National Unity was part of the miracle of transformation and that was killed off by the ANC.  I now see Mr Jeffery hailing that.

The real test of the success of the last three years is whether the man and the woman in the street has benefitted from our democracy.  That is clearly not the case.  There is an increase in lawlessness, there is an increase in unemployment and there are broken election promises.

The miracle transformation will all be in vain if it cannot be translated into benefits for the man in the street, and it is clear that the ANC Government is not able to do so.

AN HON MEMBER:  They do not know how to.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  That is why the people of this country are yearning for a real alignment in the political field, which can bring about real democracy, political balance and benefit to John Citizen.

I believe it is indeed in the national interest that the ANC support should be clipped below 50%, and that is the aim of the National Party.  The National Party with other parties and individuals have done the impossible before by bringing about an evolutionary and peaceful transformation in South Africa.  The National Party will again with other parties and individuals bring about real balance of the South African political scene by reducing the ANC to below 50%.

We have a major ally in this regard, our greatest ally is the general disillusionment with the ANC and its broken election promises.  The strong showing of Holomisa and Nkabinde has indicated that the grass-root support of the ANC is brittle.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order.  Order please.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Indeed the ANC should be seen for what it is.  The ANC should be seen for what it is.  It is a conglomerate of forces which in many respects opposes each other.  It is a conglomerate of forces without a cause at this stage.  It is a conglomerate that is bound to disintegrate.

AN HON MEMBER:  They are already doing it.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  The time has arrived for a realignment in South African politics and the people of this country are yearning for that.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  I now wish to call upon the Minister of Education and Culture.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, the hon House.  First of all, I want to commend the Premier and his Budget Council for having come up with this kind of budget under very trying circumstances.  We, the Department of Education, are one of the worst hit departments in as far as this budget is concerned.  Of course one appreciates the difficulty under which the Premier and the Budget Council are operating.

One has to look at the circumstances or the environment in which we are operating.  That is why when you discuss or you debate the budget, you look at the whole situation.  You raise all other matters that become very relevant because after all it is money that pushes programmes, it is money that effects all the ideas and wishes of Government, be it Provincial or National.

I do want to commend the attitude and the spirit in which some of our members are debating these issues.  I want to point to the hon member JJ's contribution that we are now beginning to work together as parties or as opposing parties.  Yes, it is true even between the ANC and the IFP, but that of course does not erase some of the differences or the fundamental differences that we have.

We do for instance as IFP, still have a lot of hang-ups about the Constitution of the country.  In as far as the budget is concerned we do still have hang-ups about the fiscal policy in the country, the powers of the provinces.  That is why, for instance, we had anticipated that there could still be mediation after our election.  The issues raised then are still very pertinent and even in as far as the budget is concerned, in as far as the question of crime, that is being raised almost every minute in our country.

We do need to look at the manner in which we are putting up our legislation.  For instance, on the question of Local Government legislation, on the question of traditional leaders or traditional structures.  As far as Local Government is concerned we have to ask ourselves what kind of contribution are we making towards law and order, in terms of our legislation.  We may be looking at crime only in terms of culprits and victims, but we may not be aware that we are creating a kind of an environment, which makes it very easy for these people to operate in.

We easily forget that our traditional structures have been playing a major role in law and order.  In fact most of those people were playing this role without any kind of remuneration.

If we are creating a situation now which destabilises the traditional structures and we are saying we are being very democratic, without looking at what the impact will be if those structures are destabilised, if their authority is being destabilised and how easy it becomes then for people to behave in any kind of manner, when we destroy these structures.  We have not come up with a definite policy in as far as Local Government is concerned.  We are still grappling with the question of traditional structures.  In the meantime we are demoralising the traditional structures.  It makes it easy for people to do whatever they want.

We are so engaged in taking upon western ways of running countries.  We perhaps forgot that while we are very much aggrieved with what the west was doing to our societies, when we do remove these western practices we should take into consideration what was obtained.  We should come up with some perhaps Afro-Western kind of system that is not going to destabilise our fabric of society.

In terms of the crime that we are reeling under right now, we do not only have to look at the courts, we have to look at the kind of environment that we are establishing in the country.  How easy it becomes.  We have to look at all the legislation, besides the Constitution, the legislation that we are putting up, even in as far as capital punishment, physical punishment in our courts, even corporal punishment in our schools, because we are saying our Constitution now takes care of human rights.  That is okay.  I mean it sounds very good but what kind of environment are you creating for the teacher out there?  What kind of environment are you creating for a person in authority out there, for the police in the street, what kind of environment are you creating in the street out there.

It all sounds very good, we are talking about human rights but the kind of environment that is being created makes it very easy for these people to do anything.  We cannot only concentrate on the courts, we cannot be blaming the police for not doing their job.  The environment is not conducive.  That is what I am talking about.

We were troubled with the manner in which the previous Government was handling us.  They were very oppressive but now we are running the danger of removing that oppressive Government and then getting ourselves into a situation where we think we are the first world.  We are not the first world, and we are not about to treat our people like they were in the first world.  This kind of obsession about these human rights, making things very easy for people, protecting the criminals and doing everything, I do not think we are going about it in the right fashion.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  I do not think we are going about it in the right fashion.  I had thought, during the struggle, there were so many things that we did.  We could not fault people for saying, "Let us engage into these drastic acts", it was oppression, but we engage into these drastic acts and sometimes we destabilise our own society that the situation becomes ungovernable.

After that, one thought we ourselves would then become very tough, even against our own people.  Moving from that kind of a situation where the country was almost ungovernable and becoming soft and handling people with kid gloves, we are not going to succeed.
TRANSLATION:  I my opinion Mr Speaker, I think that as we have such a big problem with crime, I think we are playing games.  I think we are playing games now, because we are way down the scale, we were right down at that level, people had laws in the rural areas, the fathers were in control, we had our own courts, the ~Amakhosi~ were in control, in other places the magistrates were in control, there was the rule of law and there was control.  

Now we came along and we said no, let us make the people jump and go to a very much higher level, then we said we are now alright, we are now on a par with America,  we are now the same as England, we are fooling ourselves because our people do not act as the people in England and America, they will not act like that.

Okay, we were a oppressed by the whites, when we talk about human rights, if you go to the Middle East, if you go to the East they do not push human rights to the fore, what they push to the fore is their form of life and their culture, which they live by.  They do not want to leave that behind - America and England have said to them you are guilty of human rights infringements and they say this is our kind of life, this is what it is like.

Anybody who is guilty of crime gets his hand chopped off in these places, a person whose is guilty of crime in some of these places is shot, we on the other hand are influenced because the west says this barbaric if we punish people who commit crime, then we also say we will join them we will live at their level.  They live in those countries people are afraid, let me make the following example and say: last week I went to Ghana, a real depressed country in economic terms.

If you look at those people they run up to you and they want to sell you something, anything, if you think what would happen if it was here in South Africa, if you did not buy from them they would then grab you and take everything from you.  But those people just come up to you offer to sell you something, finish what ever they are doing and leave you alone.  You can walk even during the night, even a woman can walk even during the night, nothing will touch her.

Perhaps we will say they use all the human rights that are available in their law no, anybody who does what is wrong they make a real spectacle of that person there and there.  Anybody who does what is wrong they do not play, they do not play with criminals, so they will live well and safely.

What I am saying Mr Speaker, is that there is something that we are not doing properly, perhaps our the intentions are good regarding this society of ours, but there is something that we are not doing properly.  People will never hear us or listen to us if we say they are untouchable they cannot be hit, they cannot be hanged, they can do what they like and then they have a right to be defended by lawyers who will get them out of the jails and do everything for them.  They are released the very next day from jail there is no respect left, they do not respect ~Amakhosi~ in the rural areas, I think that there is a lots in which we are failing.

There is a lot there is an awful lot.  T/E

Then, Mr Speaker, I do want to say that the National Government, run by the ANC at National level, has a mandate to run the country.  They have a majority which they received from a properly run election, if I may say so.  There are some fundamental issues of importance, where even a Government with a huge majority is supposed to go back to the people on certain fundamental issues and ask for their mandate.

I am talking about things like capital punishment and abortion.  Those issues are troubling us.  I feel therefore even the National Government with the present mandate it does need to go back to the people in the form of referendums.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  Because it keeps our country destabilised, if we keep on arguing about these things.  There is a way of resolving these things.  I do not think it is proper, that if we have a majority we then just have to keep on doing things.  I have qualms even about the system of education that we are adopting now.  I have serious qualms, really, because we have not trained the teachers, we do not have the infrastructure out there.  The system is okay but how are we going to effect it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Minister has one minute.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  How are we going to effect the system?  Our teachers have not been properly trained.  We have not put proper structures there and we are even contemplating such very important decisions like doing away with the examinations.  When are we going to condition our people and our structures into that kind of a situation if we adopt the system immediately?

I have no problem with the system as such but I am thinking the implementation and the implementation framework to me is too soon.  We should rather take this thing step by step, gradually, inasmuch as I was saying about some of the legislation based on our Constitution perhaps needed to be delayed for some time, until we condition our people and create the right atmosphere in our society.

We do need to get to those human rights principles but I think we are rather too fast.  Mr Speaker, thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I thank you very much.  I will then call upon Minister Mkhize and the Minister also has 15 minutes.  15 minutes, Mr Minister.

DR Z L MKHIZE:  (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members.  I wish to also commend my colleague the Minister of Finance for the budget.  I also want to start by reminding this House, that this Government of Provincial Unity, has come a long way from the days of conflict about Cabinet portfolios between the ANC and IFP.  From the days of conflict on the venues for Cabinet meetings.  From the days of conflict about the capital of the Province and the very heavy conflict on Cabinet debates and very rowdy debates within this House.  Of course all these tensions were played out amongst the supporters of the ANC and IFP mainly, and of course lots of problems of death followed.  The publicity was very bad for our Province and our people had lost hope.

The reason why I remind this House about those bad old days, is firstly, because I do not believe we should take for granted where we are and assume that we have always been like this and that things can never get worse.

Again I also think that the history that we have come from should not be repeated in the future.  I also think that we would like to also demonstrate our commitment to serving the people of this Province.

As the ANC, we took a decision that we want to be part of a solution, and we will contribute to the upliftment of the people of this Province and make the KwaZulu-Natal Government a success story.

I therefore wish, that as we discuss the issue of this budget, we should take a decision that 1997 is the year of delivery, that 1997 should be the year in which this Government of KwaZulu-Natal makes a difference in the lives of the people of this Province.  KwaZulu-Natal has got 62,4% of people living in rural areas and about 37,6% in the urban areas and these rural areas are the areas where we are finding a lot of poverty, disease, illiteracy and deprivation.

I was also shocked to find that 52% of the people in this Province are female and 47,5% are male.  If you compare with Gauteng.  Gauteng is 53,2% male and 46,87% female.

AN HON MEMBER:  We export our females.  [LAUGHTER]

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The other way.  Hon member we are exporting our males because of the migrant labour system and the poverty in this Province.  People are therefore walking out and going to look for jobs somewhere else.

The further breakdown shows us that in South Africa generally, there is a predominance of women in rural areas and there is also a dominance of men in urban areas.  Thus, women in this Province bear the brunt of poverty and this poverty of course makes them raise their children under sub-optimal conditions.  Hence many of them will die at a young age from malnutrition and some of them do not even perform well at school.

If we say that the children are the future of this Province I think that we as this Province and this Government, have to make rural development a priority for this Province.  It must also reflect in the programmes and it must reflect in our budget.  

Our Cabinet has agreed to follow a budgeting format which is from the next cycle, which will recognise the priorities of this Province.  I say one of the priorities should be the issue of rural development.  Let us also remember, that the Province will also have to determine its own departmental budgets, after receiving a global sum from the National office.

So from now on there will be no blaming of the Central Government.  Whatever we will get we will have to decide here how we spend, and therefore reprioritisation will be the process to follow, so that we can deal with the challenges such as the issue of job creation.  I believe that the plans for economic development like what has been discussed, King Shaka Airport, development of the harbours and so on, all those investments will go a long way towards solving the problem of job creation.

Of course, they also depend on stability and peace and I think that we need to commit ourselves to ensuring that the process of establishing peace and stability in this Province continues.

The area which also requires our special attention is the issue of the youth.  As a result of unemployment they will get involved in problems like criminal activities, violent crimes, drug abuse, unwanted pregnancies and so on; all of which do not bode well for the future.  Unless this Province gets the youth development strategy into place which will also involve demilitarisation of the youth or therapy for psychological trauma, I think we will face a disastrous future.

As I said, unfortunately the budget is all we have.  We have to make do with it, however little it is.  We can neither blame it on ~apartheid~ nor on the Central Government.  However, I think we need to actually put our plans together so that from the year 1997 we should be able to show delivery in this Province.  We as members of the ANC, we are committed to ensuring that these challenges are met.  We want to say that our commitment has been demonstrated by our own conduct in making sure that the Government of Provincial Unity works.  It is a success and we are proud of that type of success.

I would also say that the question that has been asked by my colleague Minister Reverend Mtetwa, that the question is why does the Government not cater for these people, and this refers to the rural people.  I believe we need to also focus on that and make our own plans, utilising the budgetary allocation that is available to this Province.

Another aspect which I believe is critical, which is the conservation of the limited resources, is the question of making sure that we have got good governance and efficient administration in our civil service.  We have to ensure that the civil services are efficient, because a lot of wastage will take place, even though we have got a limited budget - it should not be wasted further.

We therefore want to hail the efforts by this Government to exorcise the ghosts in various departments.  I must say that in the Department of Health we have dealt with about 28% of the ghosts and that would be probably close to 15 000 out of the staff of 56 000.  We will present a report in due course.

I also believe that we need to be a bit firmer on the issues of discipline.  For example, the problem of officials that are being investigated or some which have been charged with serious offences, like fraud and so on should in fact have their salaries suspended.  We can talk about it afterwards to say that the court has ruled that the money must be paid back to the individuals but there are strange cases of people who go to gaol, get arrested and then they still want to claim their salaries.  We are told two years yes, and then we are told that look the law does not allow this and that.

I think we are not using the law properly.  My view is that we need to deal with the fact that if somebody actually has committed some serious offence, the departments should be able to make an example of that individual, so that in future anyone else who is part of the team should actually think twice before they follow that.

I must also say that we will in due course, just indicate from the Department, in terms of the problems that we are finding with the crime and corruption within the Department.  What is also problematic is that the crime is actually showing to be well organised syndicates.

Initially, we thought that our Department was besieged by very ruthless fraudsters, until we discovered that in fact there is a lot of sophistication and the crime, corruption and fraud is now transdepartmental.  So you will find that you do not get robbed only as the Department of Health but they are robbing a few other departments at the same time.  We have also noted that there are transprovincial syndicates that seem to be operating.  We therefore believe that the efforts to establish clean governance have to be strengthened.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I wanted to emphasise again in certain areas, which I think need to be emphasised we need to help each other in these areas.  I want to agree with the point that was made here by the hon member Mr Gwala, and that is that we are asking that even were we argue and do not see eye to eye in certain matters but we must know and respect the Royal House and the King.

It was apparent from certain words which he used that there are times where we are embarrassed when those embarrassing issues are thrown and bandied about, whereas in truth those things could have been address by certain departments at that level and if certain thing have to be discussed they could be discussed but you find that certain things we find them all over the newspapers, before those things have even been discussed properly in the upper structures here.  Notwithstanding this we are grateful that at Cabinet level we have started a programme which falls under the Premier's Department, to plan the management of monies which are used by the King and the Royal household.  I think it would be good if we could try to separate this.  If we want to play politics we should confront each other, but we must not bring the Royal House and the King into it, because I think that will be one of the things that will assist us to gain the peace which we want to achieve, this will also cause the peace to take route. 

We are grateful also for the fact that there are no harsh words sir.  Such as the King is in exile, words like that if we were able to - grateful because we no longer hear those words and the King has done very good work, when the King was visited the by the Princess from overseas the Dutchess of Kent who visited last week, the King went visiting at Bergville.  I think all that strengthens the ties of communication between the community of KwaZulu-Natal and the different tiers of overseas Government e.g the Government of England.

As I get towards the close it is necessary to...  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Nomzuzu usumiwodwa nje Minister.  [Minister you have one minute left].

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I wish that we should also emphasise the fact that having the peace agreement of understanding does not necessarily mean there will not be criticism between the ANC and the IFP.  I would say quickly that the issue of the Constitution, we believe that the IFP did rob the process of brilliant ideas, when it walked out of the Constitution making process.

I was of course shocked to hear the comments that came from the hon member Mr Ntombela about the casinos, because the decision was taken by the Premier which was supported by Cabinet to close those casinos.  The issue of the jobs, we have not had it proven in court through UIF and taxes paid as to how many there are.  I would suggest that the matter must be taken back to the caucus of the majority party.

Again I also want to say that the issue of the National Party, now that they are planning to reduce the ANC to less than 50%,  We now understand that some of the agents that they infiltrated into the organisations like in the ANC and I am sure with other parties.  As far as the ANC is concerned when we find them we will deal with them.  The problem with that process is that they also involved police so much into politics, that instead of training them about how to deal with petty and common crime, they actually went out to kill guerillas and bury them in shallow graves.

I want to say that one of the problems that we have with the police is the level of training.  At the time the National Party was ruling the direction of training was more towards killing the ANC.  It is also good to know that that kind of process is still going on, but I want to say that reducing the ANC to less than 50% majority is only a dream, which the National Party will not realise until it is disbanded.  With those words, Mr Speaker, I want to thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  We have come to the end of the general debate on the budget.  We are therefore going to listen to the Premier.  The hon Premier has 20 minutes, but obviously that is a guide.  Thank you, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:   Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to thank my honourable colleagues, the members of this House, for the work, the thought and the lucidity they have put in their arguments in this debate.  A lot of good has come out of this debate, which will help us as we begin - in fact we have already begun the mammoth task of the 1998/1999 Budget cycle.

Mr Speaker, a budget is a product of work that begins some eighteen months before that budget is tabled in the House.  The 1997/98 Budget, also followed this process.  It is common knowledge, that there are strict deadlines, on which we have to come up with Provincial Budgets, which get incorporated into the National Budget.  

A further point to consider is that the provincial growth and development strategy for this Province, was only adopted by Cabinet around June 1996.  Such an adoption was not accompanied by a clear implementation plan.  This, I am informed, departments are now about to finalise these implementation plans.  Therefore at the time there was no definite statement of priorities, against which departments could premise the expeditionary reprioritisation exercise.  This is the background against which the Provincial Budget Council had to recommend a budget to Cabinet.  

Furthermore Mr Speaker, the departments had not really finalised the amalgamation exercise and critical posts were still not filled.  This created immense capacity problems in departments, as far as the drawing up of business plans and so on.  The negative interest of this was canvassed in the meetings of the Committee with most of the departments.  I can report that a meeting is scheduled with the Provincial Service Commission to canvass these matters further.  The 1998/99 Budget process, will see a different set of circumstances and we can expect a better budget.  The National Budget Council, which I attended yesterday, saw an adoption of indicative allocations for the three ensuing financial years.  And what we are starting now, is a very major exercise of multi-year funding at national level, and incorporates the Premiers of provinces, together with their treasurers.  

These allocations as recommended by the Budget Council, will now be forwarded to the National Cabinet for approval.  We will have a meeting on the 14th and then again another meeting in the second half of the year and another meeting in December, as Premiers having joined Cabinet meetings with national ministries.  
It is important to mention that the multi-year budget indicative allocations were arrived at through the medium term expenditure framework, which is now popularly known as the MTEF.  The MTEF was drawn with due regard to the inputs made by the Financial and Fiscal Commission.  All provinces are expected to finalise their own MTEF's, so that a national multi-medium term expenditure framework can be finalised during the second half of this calender year.

I can report that the Provincial Cabinet in its last meeting approved that the provincial multi-year expenditure framework be formulated, and this process has begun.  Cabinet directed that departments, the Cabinet itself and Parliament be involved by the Treasury.  It is quite clear of course, that the Portfolio Committee for Finance, our own Budget Council in the Province, will play a critical role in the formulation of the provinces multi-year expenditure framework.

The Treasury has indicated that a budget Indaba is being planned towards the end of this month.  In this Indaba an attempt will be made to reprioritise the provincial expenditure, to ensure that the three-year plan of the province reflects accurate provincial priorities.  We intend to include in this Indaba Heads of Departments and their budget controllers, all Cabinet Ministers, all chairpersons of portfolio committees and experts in this field, drawn from the Province and the National Government.  

After presenting the budget in ~Ulundi~, I availed myself to the Finance Portfolio Committee, in which I explained in detail what went into the budget before this House.  I am convinced that the representations made by this multi-party committee, were based on these explanations.  I am convinced also, that the budget should not be reduced to a party political campaigning tool, it is too vital for the Province.  

We welcome the realisation that office space is a problem in the entire Province.  It has to be understood, that governance in the new dispensation is meant to cover the length and breadth of the Province.  This is done by bringing the institutions closer to the people.  Addressing those special problems will vary from one location to the next.  We note the recommendations of the Finance Committee on this matter.

On the question of the Peace Fund.  It is important to understand the background of this fund.  Certain communities and individuals in the Province were caught up in the horrific and vicious violence that we have gone through.  It is true that most of these constituencies were IFP and ANC constituencies.  It is also true that a Peace Committee that was chaired by Mr Pretorius, established a trust fund to try and bring restitution to those people who had been the victims of the violence.  

It is also true that when Minister Naidoo, who was then in charge of the RDP, visited this Province, he met the former Premier, Dr Mdlalose and Minister Zuma, to discuss the assistance that could be given to the restitution program, and therefore to consider dating the peace that was tentatively being achieved.  Hence this R100-million came from the RDP office to underpin our peace effort at the community level.  

It is also true that we do have a Peace Committee for the Province.  This Peace Committee will be involved in the examination and the prioritisation in terms of using this R100-million.  It will not simply be a cover up between the Premier who is IFP and the Minister of Economic Affairs who is ANC.  That I reject with the contempt it deserves.

For the record, the amounts that have gone into the 1997/98 Budget, are intent on ensuring that some provincial funds go to specific projects that are distributed across departments.  These projects, Mr Speaker, are nothing else other than what Minister Trevor Manuel, our National Minister of Finance, calls contingency funds or policy funds.  It is quite clear that it is going to be some time before we turn around this huge ship of state, this huge bureaucracy that runs this country, turn it around to develop new modalities for delivering of services.  

It is true that most of the functions will be funded through line functions.  But there will be those needs of communities that are so urgent, which cannot wait for the normal routine procedures, of a file that lands on an official's desk, taking even six months before it is turned around.  We needed a mechanism that will be fast, efficient, effective and very highly controlled through the normal regulations of reporting and accounting that is obtained in Government.  That any project of this nature will be directed by the head of the particular department, through whom the accountability of the money spent will be managed.  That this type of condition, the funding, will not in any way obviate and circumvent full accountability and overview by the Auditor-General at the appropriate time.  

That any recommendation to spend money from this fund, which I choose to call, not the Premier's Discretionary Fund, but the Contingency Fund for this Province.  That the business plans will go to the Director-General, who will then forward these to the Budget Council.  The Budget Council will forward recommendations to the Cabinet, so that the money can then be authorised for the particular project.  The basis of the authorisation and recommendation will substantially be dependent on the clear definition of the need, on the time frames for implementing that program and on the mechanisms for monitoring and evaluation in terms of the effectiveness.

These things we have discussed over and over again.  I really get sick and tired, colleagues, to have some people still querying our integrity as far as this issue is concerned.  We are not here to misuse Government funds, we are here to ensure that the multitudes who have suffered in the past, start to feel a change in their lives, now that there is a democratic government in this country.  

I wish now to briefly refer to corruption as raised in this House.  The Cabinet under the leadership of the former Premier, Dr F T Mdlalose, acknowledged that there is a broad range of corruption.  It is in this context that the Cabinet established a successful anti-corruption campaign.  When the issues of corruption are raised in the debate, no mention has been made of the efforts mounted by this Government to deal with these problems.  

Unfortunately I must also say, it becomes very disconcerting to see reports and reports coming from the Public Accounts Committee, that wants to cast an impression, that this Cabinet is useless in terms of cost management, accounting and so on.  That our civil service is populated by corrupt groups.  What are we trying to do to this Province?  These people have families, they have got relatives.  If we accuse them, being the highest organ of accountability in this Province, the Public Accounts Committee, accuse them and cast aspersions on their integrity, what are we trying to do?  

I think we need to examine the composition of the Public Accounts Committee.  Again it is the responsibility of the House, I want to submit, that we cannot as responsible leaders, create an impression that the entire Civil Service of this Province are criminals, as I have said.  We are doing a great disservice to ourselves and the Province, if we lead the community of KwaZulu-Natal to mistrust our civil service.  

When we apprehend someone who has done wrong, I will support what Dr Mkhize has said, let us mete out justice, let us mete out appropriate punishment.  Let us not hide behind a whole lot of extensive, internal investigations, so that even when the person is convicted by a court of law, that person continues to draw a salary.  We must reform our public service regulations to remove these types of anomalies.  In fact most of those regulations come from a past and we know what the past has been.  There has been a lot of cover up, there has been a lot of protection, now we want transparency, we want a clean Government.  We are going to achieve this, Mr Speaker.  

All that remains for me is to say that I am glad that most of our colleagues, our comrades in this House, have approved this 1997/98 Budget.  I am very thankful for this.  We put in a lot of work in the Budget Council, the Treasury officials.  We checked and counter-checked the figures.  There was no intent to mislead this House, or to abuse the Province's money.  

I would like to commend the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee of Finance, for the very sterling work that he has done together with his Committee and I look forward to very close co-operation as we structure the next budget.  Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  That concludes today's business and with the conclusion of today's business we will now have no alternative but to adjourn this House until we meet on Wednesday, the 7th, at 2 o'clock.

Before we officially adjourn, we did make an announcement before we went to lunch that there is going to be a meeting of all members of the Legislature.  I expect that all members will respect that announcement.  We will have a two minute break which will not result in anybody leaving these premises.  If we come back in time after two minutes we are likely to finish today's business by twenty past three and that will allow all of us to be able to do some things that we are able to do for today.

Mr Premier, I am hoping that there is no announcement as I see you just concluded your debate.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me a chance.  I would wish to apologise to the members of this House for my absence yesterday.  The information that I was needed in Cape Town came about six hours or so before I had to make arrangements to go down which was Sunday.  It was not really possible to change the programme of the House.

So I hope that there will be an understanding and flexibility among the members and realisation that we face a very rapid process of transition.  That there will be unexpected scheduled meetings which will necessitate that one probably break an engagement or changes the plans for the day.  So I will be glad if the House will condone my absence yesterday.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I am sure the House condones the absence.  The Premier is there representing the Province and not himself.  Having said that, this House therefore stands adjourned until Wednesday, the 7th at 14:00 when we will resume the debate on each of the votes.  The House stands adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 15:01 UNTIL
	14:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 7 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - THIRD SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 7 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:10 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

There is no affirmation.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, could I repeat the query that Mr Rajbansi initiated two days ago regarding the vacancy in the House which exists in the ranks of the African National Congress, and request whether the constitutional provisions requiring that this vacancy be filled within a limited period of time have been complied with?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will answer that fairly soon.  In the meantime there being no other comments on that issue I will continue with the orders of the day.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

There is only one announcement I wish to make and that is to again announce the apology of the Speaker.  He has not recovered.  I was officially informed that he is today attending Parklands Hospital in Durban.  We will confirm whether he is to be admitted or not.

In the event of him being admitted in line with the decision of the Parliamentary Board, we will arrange for the sending of messages of support during his time of confinement.  That is that.

AN HON MEMBER:  And flowers, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would just like to inform the House that the task team which was set up under the Cabinet subcommittee on peace in the Province met today.  We received a package of proposals from the African National Congress, which unfortunately we cannot divulge at the moment because we still have to present them to our principals.  I am just happy to announce that the peace process is on track in this Province.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I see an indication from the Minister of Economic Affairs.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would just like to confirm what the Premier has said, that we have had the meeting and that both sides are going to be reporting to their principals.  Therefore at the moment that is what will be news.  Then when the matter is reported to the principals, I am sure at the right time, the Premier will be able to elaborate.  Thanks.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister.  That having been taken care of.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

On this one I have to officially present to the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee a report of the Auditor-General.  This report has been sent to the Speaker, Auditor-General's report for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Can I have a point of order, Mr Speaker?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Is it permissible to table a report without everyone having a copy of that report, because I certainly do not have?

MR V A VOLKER:  That is not the issue.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I had hoped that the report was being circulated.  Is it not being circulated?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the position in terms of the Public Accounts Act is that the Auditor-General is required to submit the report to the Speaker, ten days before it is made available to Parliament.  I was informed yesterday that those ten days had not yet lapsed.  The report will be made available to all members on Monday.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Volker, for that clarity which takes care of whenever the report will be ready.  If it is today, it will be ready today for tabling.  Thank you for that.  Anymore tabling of papers or reports or comments on that?  That takes care of that issue.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day that:  

	This House noting with grave concern the continued unacceptably high incidence of rape and other forms of violence against women, and in particular the tragic incident reported in The Natal Witness of yesterday, 6 May 1997, where a 19 year old woman who is nine months pregnant was raped, robbed and seriously assaulted by eight men;

	Hereby resolves:
 
	1.	to pledge its support to all survivors of such violence and their families; and 

	2.	to commit itself to do everything in its power and within its competence to eradicate this evil from our society.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  That takes care of our points on notices of Bills or motions and it makes me very pleased to see that we had only one motion.

8.	ORDER OF THE DAY

Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to move in terms of Rule 47 that the House now resolves into Committee to discuss the various votes.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  The report of the Department of the Premier was delivered to Parliament this morning but unfortunately we are not able to locate it just now.  Can I record this report as having been tabled today because it will be found just now?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I would make a suggestion that permission be sought to table it when it is found, because I do not think we can note it as being tabled when in fact it is not.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, in the light of the fact that that report is a very valuable document for us to use in our debate I suggest that we grant the Premier an extension of time so that he will be able to touch on important points in that report during his introductory speech.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, what is the extension of time really?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I think the Rules say that the Leaders of the two major parties have unlimited time.  So I think we should have some discretion with the Premier if he desires still to touch on that report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I was trying to clarify in my own mind what extension of time means.  In terms of the Rules really the Premier does not even require that.  He is just automatically given that.  The report has been found luckily.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, may I raise a related issue.  Obviously we cannot change the situation at the moment, but in view of the fact that members requiring to be prepared for a discussion and debate, I would appeal to other Cabinet Ministers to make the reports of their departments available before the debate starts.  Preferably a week before or at least a few days before.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am sure that is agreed to.  There was a proposal by the Chief Whip to convert the House into Committee.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I second the motion, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The motion has been seconded.  I take it that the report of the Premier will be tabled during that session.  Thank you, Mr Premier.  It is now tabled.  The House is now converted into Committee stage and I will request the Deputy Chair of Committees to please assume Chairpersonship.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.  MR T S MOHLOMI THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMITTEE TAKES THE CHAIR.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 1: THE DEPARTMENT OF THE PREMIER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee of Supply resumes and I wish to call upon the Minister and the Premier of the Province, Dr B S Ngubane to take the floor.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, members of the Cabinet and hon members, this is the first time that I am to present a budget speech for the Department of the Premier since my assumption of the position of Premier for this Province.  I will present this budget in an atmosphere of hope and with great anticipation for what the future holds for our Province.  We have experienced numerous difficulties in setting up an administration for the Government of KwaZulu-Natal, but it would perhaps have been naive of us to suggest that it would not have been a cumbersome and difficult task.  We have had to face the challenge of merging at least five large administrations into one, with numerous other movements of staff between the National and Provincial levels of Government in terms of the provisions of our interim, and now final, Constitution.  This caused a redesign of departments, the rethink of numerous existing systems, including personnel, computer, financial and other systems.  Staff had to be re-orientated towards these new procedures and had to settle into new reporting and functioning relationships.  I am sure that the Chief Executive of any large corporation (in our case employing in the region of 180 000 persons) would agree that this is not a simplistic matter.

Nonetheless, in our Province we have today a Government properly organised into separate distinct departments.  Each department, despite existing shortcomings, which we are addressing, is dedicated towards delivering to our community in terms of its mandate.  Notwithstanding these difficulties, we do have several initiatives of note in this Province which lay a perfect foundation for growth and development.  One can only reflect on the provincial vision, the growth and development strategy, the programme for good governance, the anti-corruption campaign, the spatial development initiatives, anticipated capital investments that we are aware of for the Province, harbour and waterfront developments, the international airport initiative, anticipated foreign investments in our Province, only to realise that, with responsible interaction between all sectors of our provincial economy, this Province has a bright future.

As Premier, I undertake to address the obstacles to performance and to do all I can to ensure that the public service in this Province can play a productive and meaningful role in all of these matters.  In this way, my Department has an important role to fulfil.  It is responsible for various key transversal programmes and issues which should contribute to achieving a productive and well functioning public service.  This includes aspects such as the programme for good governance, the anti-corruption campaign, the right-sizing of the public service and various related matters.  I will discuss these in more detail later.

My Department has a wide range of transversal responsibilities with a total budget allocation of R87,253 million for the 1997/98 financial year for departmental activities, which represents an overall increase of only R634 000 or (0,7%) over 1996/97.

Before I give an overview of the departmental activities, I should perhaps clarify for hon members, the position with the funds totalling R158,8 million which are set aside for special projects.  

This is not an exhaustive description of the procedures that will be followed but nevertheless let us begin to get a handle on these funds, their management, their disbursal and their accounting for.

There have been a number of articles in the press, which variously made different allegations in regard to the purpose of these funds, ranging from accusations of slush funds destined to be used for election campaign purposes, through to a calculated plot on my part to neutralise the successes of other Ministers, because it was said funds were taken from the original request for funds for this financial year from other departments.

I want to assure the hon members of this House that nothing can be further from the truth.  As I explained to the members of the Finance Portfolio Committee during the discussions at the budget hearings in preparation for this sitting, when the Budget Council met in September 1996 to consider the motivations put forward by departments for funds for this financial year, it became abundantly clear that there was a real need to reprioritise projects, in order to ensure that real development can take place and concrete results on the ground can be achieved in all spheres.  

Unfortunately, the time constraints placed on the preparation of budgets did not allow for the departments to go back and carry out this reprioritisation exercise.  As a result, the Budget Council unanimously agreed to set up a special fund for the purpose of speeding up certain aspects of development, where this is feasible and possible and where the need is clearly identified.  These funds are inter alia destined for such projects as the rehabilitation of schools and classrooms and the construction of rural roads, areas which in this administration are regarded as top priority.

It should perhaps be made very clear that it is envisaged that these funds will only be accessible to departments for development purposes on submission of a business plan to the Budget Council.  In this way we have provided a mechanism through which rapid reprioritisation and response to identified needs and projects could be effected in a co-ordinated manner.  Finally, sir, although it was originally decided to place these funds within vote 1, Department of the Premier, after further discussions with Treasury officials and the accounting officer of the Department of the Premier, it has now been decided to place the funds in vote 6, Department of Finance.  This is appropriate given that the final approval for these funds rests with the Budget Council whose secretariat and administration functions are performed by the officials from the Treasury in the Department of Finance.  The Appropriation Bill and supporting documents have been amended accordingly.

The budget allocation contained in this vote for my Department is in respect of the following four chief directorates, namely:

CHIEF DIRECTORATE: GOVERNMENT POLICY AND CO-ORDINATION:

The formulation of macro Government policy and the co-ordination of implementation plans.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE : HUMAN RESOURCES:

The rendering and co-ordination of the human resource management functions within the administration.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE : LEGAL ADVISORY SERVICES:

The rendering of a legal advisory and related services dealing with the legislative and judicial issues.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE : ADMINISTRATION:

The rendering of auxiliary and support services.  The Chief Directorate : Gaming and Betting has since April 1996 functionally been executing its duties as a part of the Department of the Premier, although its budget amounting to R5,435 million for this financial year is still with the Department of Finance.

The Provincial Service Commission has now recommended the formal transfer of this function to my Department.  The funds will during the course of the year be suspended and transferred to the Department of the Premier : Vote 1.  I will address the issues of gambling later when I deal with the vote of the Department of Finance.

I will now deal with each of the Chief Directorates in greater detail.


CHIEF DIRECORATE : GOVERNMENT POLICY AND CO-ORDINATION


Mr Chairman, hon members, you will be well aware of the Programme for Good Governance that was instituted by my predecessor, Dr Frank Mdlalose.  Today I would like to pay tribute to Dr Mdlalose for his vision and foresight in introducing this programme.  This programme, acknowledges that we cannot move forward in this Province without an efficient public service.  The public service in turn will not become efficient until we have instilled a positive work ethic, where public servants conscientiously strive to meet their customer's needs.  To achieve this we need a motivated, honest and committed workforce.

From the annual report that has been tabled, hon members will be able to establish what progress has already been made to this end and what initiatives are currently underway.  It can be deduced that this is a vision driven programme.  The vision is underpinned by a set of values, namely honesty and openness, entrepreneurship, caring, innovation, pride, respect and discipline.

My Department has launched an ambitious change management programme initiative aimed at changing attitudes and instilling a positive work ethic.  An extensive internal communications campaign has been conducted in the administration in order to convey concepts such as:

-	Merging after amalgamation or restructuring
-	Participative management
-	Combatting fraud
-	Recognising and rewarding achievement
-	Communicating good governance by walkabout
-	Work ethic in the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration
-	Managing organisational change
-	Maintaining an acceptable standard of behaviour in the workplace

Those hon members who have an interest in management science will appreciate that change management is not an easy task.  Our challenge, is daunting indeed.  It is to change the attitudes of 180 000 public servants who have come from various former Government administration backgrounds, all with an own organisational culture, different systems, interpretations of rules and ways of doing things.  To develop them into a unified and productive workforce all striving to accomplish the vision for this Province, is the challenge.

In order to accomplish this we have embarked upon an extensive change management workshop campaign.  Such workshops are used for motivating staff and promoting participative management by getting commitment to the vision, identifying barriers and collectively deciding on actions to overcome barriers in order to better meet our customer's needs.  This task has been tackled by public servants within the administration who have become skilled in the art of facilitation.  Although we have made good progress in this field, ways will have to be found to speed up this process and I do foresee that we will have to in source facilitation services for this purpose while at the same time not neglecting to transfer skills to internal staff.

I have stated on various occasions that this Government of Provincial Unity is committed to the Programme for Good Governance.  I would therefore now like to turn my attention to issues which I regard as essential in order to move the process of good governance forward, areas in which progress must be made in the current financial year and with the budget which is now being debated.

Firstly, we must take cognisance of the fact that we are now into the fourth year of the new dispensation and we are still battling in certain departments to get structures approved, posts filled, acquiring accommodation and sorting out basic procedures relating to the amalgamation process.  This year, 1997, must be the year in which we overcome these problems so that we can move ahead with good governance.  We must look towards re-engineering which will involve a fundamental rethinking and radical redesign of business processes in Government so that we can achieve dramatic improvements in the delivery of Government services.  At the moment we cannot make progress in this area, because we are still battling to address the basic issues which I have just mentioned.  In order to address this problem I am going to require my colleagues in Cabinet to work very closely with me in reporting progress in our departments on a regular basis.  We will take steps during 1997 to overcome basic problems which are preventing us from moving forward with good governance.

Mr Speaker, I am sure that we are all agreed that rewards for work well done contributes in a large measure for job satisfaction.  We have many employees of the State who perform their duties diligently and with responsibility, but the mechanisms for identifying and rewarding these individuals are cumbersome and complex.  I believe that a part of the problem is that all award systems within the public service depend on rewarding individuals and not necessarily teams who perform well.

This may in certain circumstances be a divisive measure of reward, since one may have to choose between individuals who may all, to different degrees, have contributed towards the achievement of success in a particular component.

In addition, public service measures make it difficult to reward all team members due to the procedures for granting awards and the limitation imposed on the number of persons who may be granted merit awards.  At the moment, there is also no manner of recognising an institution of the State, which may be delivering a qualitatively higher standard of service than other similar institutions, for example, a hospital which may be doing extremely well compared to other hospitals.  It is believed that we should have a procedure whereby the institution and the staff who rise above the rest of its contemporary institutions can be identified and rewarded for the extra effort that it contributed in its services to the public sector.  For this reason we are currently investigating the introduction of a prestigious award system, which will, in most instances, be defined in terms of the quality and standard of service delivery to the public.  The award system will be designed to promote and encourage service excellence.  It is hoped that such a system will introduce a sense of mission and purpose in institutions and rally all the staff towards the achievement of such recognition.  It will also, we believe, serve to institute a measure of self-regulation for conduct amongst staff members, since the digressions of one member will inevitably reflect negatively on the performance of an institution as a whole.  We have initiated investigation into such a system and will keep members informed on progress.

A further aspect of the programme for good governance which needs to be put into place this year is the whole question of performance measurement.  A draft KwaZulu-Natal Government Performance Bill has been approved in principle by Cabinet and the regulations, and further guidelines in this regard, are currently being complied.  My Cabinet colleagues and I have requested that the regulations be prepared before we submit the Bill, since experience in other countries has shown that the determination of key performance indicators is a complex task.  We need to understand this before we adopt this Bill since the Bill is going to place specific demands on the departments of this Province.  It is hoped that by preparing some regulations and guidelines beforehand, departments will have some greater clarity on how to proceed once the Bill is adopted.

The purpose of this Bill and regulations will be to improve service delivery, improve the confidence of the people of the Province in the provincial administration and improve public accountability by setting programme goals, measuring results against those goals and reporting on such results.  The Bill will also encourage innovation by allowing for waivers of certain procedural requirements when such waivers enhance accountability and improve efficiency and effectiveness.

Good governance remains an impossible ideal if we cannot have a general and consistent high level of discipline amongst the staff.  It is simply unacceptable and cannot be tolerated that staff refuse to carry out lawful instructions and make themselves guilty of all sorts of misdemeanours without any form of discipline being imposed.  Where steps are taken the procedures are cumbersome and seem to favour the accused to an extent that virtually renders the disciplinary procedures useless.  I would like to see, the meaningful steps being taken during 1997 to rectify this situation.  In this respect we must protect the hard working and loyal public servants of this Province by taking decisive action against any employees who make themselves guilty of lapses in discipline and who transgress management directives without substantive reason.

Whilst all employees should have the right to be treated fairly and impartially, it is time that Government delivery and service is not compromised by the unreasonable conduct of employees.

Another matter which will now receive our dedicated attention is that of so-called "re-engineering".  This is an important aspect of transforming the provincial public service into a more efficient and effective organisation capable of customer focused delivery.  Although this is complicated and has taken many other Governments around the world many years to achieve some measure of success, we aim to learn from the experiences from other Governments to ensure faster action in this regard in our Province.  It will nevertheless be a time-consuming task.  Whilst we are still dealing primarily with many of the basic issues, the process of re-engineering has begun.  Certain preliminary investigations and projects have been initiated.

Finally, Mr Chairman, all the issues we wish to address, all the goals we seek to achieve, the positive work ethic, the establishment of a motivated, honest, committed and highly disciplined workforce, improved customer service, democratisation within the workplace, recognition for service excellence, in short, vision achievement, can only be realised if we provide the kind of leadership commitment and ownership which will support these issues and allow transformation to take place.  I will therefore be looking to my colleagues in the year ahead to assist me in achieving real progress with our Programme for Good Governance.

Regarding the anti-corruption campaign, which is coordinated by this Chief Directorate, it was reported that as at 7 April 1997 we had received 30 913 calls with 462 criminal cases under investigation and 47 transgressions referred to departments.  The campaign is certainly reaping definitive results.  We aim to continue with this programme and to build on its success thus far.  I believe this remains a priority area for each Ministry.  Definite results are being obtained and we express our appreciation for all the departments who participate in the anti-corruption campaign directly, as well as the work being done in individual departments to deal with the issue of corruption.

I must, however, emphasise that we intend to be merciless with any issue pertaining to corruption and fraud.  Any official making himself guilty of improper acts will be dealt with severely.  I wish to also indicate publicly that supervisors at all levels within the Government will be held accountable for any acts of corruption or fraud perpetrated in their components.  They should be expected to ensure that adequate controls and monitoring systems are in place to avoid such acts.

This Chief Directorate, is also involved in numerous other projects and programmes of a co-ordinated nature.  For instance, the youth and gender matters which have been the subject of much debate in the Premier's Portfolio Committee and have been addressed at provincial summits and conferences, is being managed by this Chief Directorate.  In this regard we will be issuing Green and White Papers in the near future to invite comment on any outstanding matters before we finally place the matters before the Cabinet and bring appropriate legislation to this Parliament.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE : HUMAN RESOURCES

This Chief Directorate is responsible for human resources development, labour relations, personnel management and management advisory services.

The Directorate : Human Resource Development has three training components set up in ~Ulundi~, Durban and Pietermaritzburg.  Each of the components consist of training and administration staff and is responsible for presenting a wide range of training and development courses.  In addition, a newly created sub-directorate: Literacy, Education and Career Development will be attached to the ~Ulundi~ office.

The Directorate : Human Resources Development has a range of 21 different courses and a total of 331 courses programmed for 1997 in the three centres ~Ulundi~, Pietermaritzburg and Durban.  It is anticipated that approximately 12 000 officials will be trained on these courses.  It is also envisaged that additional courses will be programmed for specific training needs as requested by the various departments.

One of the Directorate's key activities is the Adult Literacy Development Programme.  Preliminary training needs and investigations have been identified.  We have identified that there are approximately 25 000 employees in the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration who would benefit from literacy programmes.

It is this Directorate's intention to identify persons in each department, train them as tutors at the various Adult Basic Education and Training (ABET) levels and then assist them to set up ABET classes in the workplace.  In addition, ongoing assistance and monitoring will be provided to the tutors regarding administrative and training issues.

The Directorate has entered into a contract with Super Management Natal to cover the training and monitoring of 30 tutors at elementary and basic level and royalty fees for 1 500 delegates have been earmarked.  The total cost of this contract amounts to approximately R248 000,00.

Thus far 18 potential tutors have been identified in the Pietermaritzburg region from the Departments of Agriculture and Transport and they will be trained as tutors during May 1997.  Although this contract represents only a small amount of the R874 000 consultant fees allocated to literacy training, it must be kept in mind that tutors from the other regions and the other departments will now have to be identified and trained and that the costs involved in setting up literacy classes will have to be covered.

The development of courses requires the conducting of training needs analysis within the departments, as well as extensive research.

The Directorate : Personnel Management has a wide range of human resource responsibilities.  They are inter alia responsible for the transversal development and management of the PERSAL system which entails the provision and co-ordination of PERSAL training to all users within the administration, maintenance of the PERSAL system and the provision of a PERSAL help desk in the main centres.  This system is responsible for all computerised personnel records and salary administration matters within the administration.

The personnel management component has an ongoing responsibility for research and policy development and have in recent times established procedures and policies to deal with matters such as nepotism, Aids, subsistence and travelling, expenditure, special leave and time off for religious gatherings.

Policies regarding affirmative action have been developed and are presently a subject of discussion with the labour unions.  Bursary and State aid, official transport and sexual harassment are current topics of investigation.  The Directorate : Personnel Management is responsible for the personnel related statistics of the administration.  This includes statistics on essential services, sessional officers, severance packages, misconduct cases and various other issues.

The Directorate also provides a personnel management function to the Department of the Premier and a transversal support service to the administration.

One of the most important tasks being undertaken by this component is involved in that of right-sizing.  Together with departments and management advisory components the component must co-ordinate the determination of right-sized targets for each department in the administration.  Proper record-keeping and monitoring of progress in this regard must be applied.  

The departments have already agreed to specific targets which would amount to the reduction of the administration by approximately 6 800 posts, excluding CS educators.  I will be monitoring these targets carefully and will request further reviews to ensure that right-sizing becomes a continuous process.  Through applying our minds to the abolition of existing vacant posts, abolishing non-essential posts where staff have been granted the severance packages and by reducing posts becoming vacant as a result of natural attrition, targets can be achieved.  In applying any right-sizing measures, care will be taken not to diminish the ability of the Government to perform its functions.  In certain cases the personnel being used, such as the doctor or the teacher, is the most important resource of the Government and it makes sense that expenditure on these units should reflect their importance to the organisation.

In turning to the Directorate : Labour Relations, it will be recalled that a new Labour Relations Act has been implemented in South Africa.  The public service is also subjected to the provisions of this Act.

The Directorate : Labour Relations has the responsibility during 1997/98 to oversee the implementation of the Labour Relations Act in the administration.  The Directorate presents workshops and seminars to staff members as well as to the incumbents of the management cadre on the new Labour Relations Act and has a responsibility for transversal labour relations policy development for the administration, is also responsible for the administration of the provincial Bargaining Chamber which meets on a regular basis and assists with the facilitation of dispute resolution.

The Directorate : Management Advisory Services will during the 1997/98, in addition to their normal duties pertaining to workshop facilitation, the conducting of establishment and organisation investigations, procedure and method studies and so forth, have to become actively involved in assisting departments in the implementation of the Government Performance Bill.

This Bill will, once enacted, require that departments report on key programmes and activities.  It is anticipated that the determination of key performance measures could become a complex task with which the management advisory services component would have to assist.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE : LEGAL ADVISORY SERVICES

The main functions of this Chief Directorate can be summarised as providing for the execution of legal proceedings, the management of legal liability, liaison with concerned parties, providing legal opinions, drafting of regulations, the certification of legislation and the provision of institutional and constitutional legal advisory services.

It is of interest to note that during the 1996/97 financial year, this Chief Directorate was involved with a total of 435 written opinions, 126 oral opinions, the editing and scrutinization of 16 Bills, the drafting and scrutinization of regulations.  Of importance is the process of the rationalisation of all assigned laws.  It is currently still the case that different laws may apply in respect of the old KwaZulu and the rest of Natal, given for example the assignment of former KwaZulu laws and Natal Ordinances which addressed the same subject matter.  It is intended that during this year, the Chief Director : Legal Advice will institute a procedure whereby this process of rationalisation can be more actively monitored, pursued and realised.



CHIEF DIRECTORATE : ADMINISTRATION

Every organisation has a component which has as its primary aim the function of serving the organisation's own needs.  In my Department, the Chief Directorate : Administration, performs this corporate function, not only for my Department, but in various areas, for the administration as a whole.  Within this Chief Directorate a wide range of functions ranging from the provision of executive support services to the drafting and translation of legislation for processing in this House are performed.

Before giving a brief overview of the activities of this Chief Directorate, however, I should perhaps mention that in the year that has just passed, problems have been experienced in filling certain of the management posts and finalising certain organisational components of the lower post structure.  This has unfortunately resulted in delays at times but I am pleased to report that some of these problems have now been resolved and we look forward to being able to function far more efficiently and effectively in the coming year.

I would now like to highlight some of the activities of this Chief Directorate which I hope will give hon members a better picture of this side of my Department and an understanding of the financial allocation to this component.

One of the transversal functions my Department provides to all departments and the Provincial Legislature is the provision of assistance in the drafting of and translation of legislation.  The Legislation Drafting and Translation Sub-directorate undertakes this responsibility.  I am not sure if the members of this Legislature are aware that many of the draft Bills that come before this House are produced with the assistance of the specialist expertise that is available in this component and indeed, the Rules of this House, were drafted using the services available in this component.

It may perhaps be of interest to members to know that the following legislation is at present being prepared in conjunction with the legal drafting component:

-	Revision of the museums legislation
-	Draft legislation for the overall control of environmental management in the Province
-	Revision of the libraries legislation and regulations
-	The draft performance legislation
-	Draft Economic Advisory Council Bill
-	Revision of the Sharks Board legislation
-	Draft legislation to regulate unfair business practises.

As hon members are aware, during the course of the past financial year considerable changes in the Aviation Services provided took place.  Detailed presentations were made to various committees of this Parliament during last year and the matter was fully debated at that time.  It does not require extensive explanation from my side at this stage.

To recap, however, I will mention a few matters.  A thorough analysis of the needs of the administration was conducted and private sector aviation experts and chartered accountants were used in the adjudication and contracting processes.  A new service provider that is S A Airlink was appointed supplying both a scheduled and non-scheduled service.  The scheduled service provides a daily passenger service to both officials of the administration as well as private passengers between ~Ulundi~, Pietermaritzburg and Durban.

The utilisation of this daily service has far exceeded original expectations and the use of the service by private individuals does provide the administration with a cost recovery option which did not exist previously.

Within the general heading of Ancillary Services, lies a multitude of functions which help to keep the Department functioning ranging from registry and typing services to budgetary and expenditure control services.  The people who work in the various components who provide these ancillary services are not in high profile positions but are nonetheless amongst those who keep the engine of the Department running and provide services to others in a selfless manner.  If hon members refer to the Annual Report of the Department they will find reference to some of the statistics of the work performed by these components.  It will be noticed that the two print rooms in ~Ulundi~ and Pietermaritzburg used some 7,5 million sheets of paper in the printing jobs that they did for the various departments in the administration.  Having recently revised the printing machine requirements in both print rooms and purchased new equipment, I am sure that departments who make use of the service offered will be pleased to learn that we will now be able to offer a faster and better quality service.

The archives section housed in the second level basement of the Natalia Building attended to the filing of 244 980 linear metres of files and destroyed 166 012 linear metres of redundant files and documents in the last year.

Registry and postal service deals not only with the management of the Department's files but also the bulk postage of items like motor vehicle renewals licenses and marine licence renewals as well as general post.  Various other services are also rendered by this component and the staff here should be thanked for the manner in which they perform key support functions without which the operation of various departments would be compromised.

The overall control of the vehicles within my Department is also performed from within the ancillary services component.  All the vehicles within my Department with the exception of those used by my office and that of His Majesty the King which are not marked for obvious security reasons, prominently display not only the departmental logos on the doors, but also a "how is my driving" sticker, bearing the departmental telephone numbers, on the rear of the vehicle.  It is also a matter of some pride that we have had very few complaints regarding our vehicles and that where complaints and information is received, these are logged, investigated and a report back made to the person who phones in.

Also falling within the provision of general support services, rests the provision of administrative and executive support services to the Cabinet, my Office, the Director General and His Majesty the King.

The subject of His Majesty the King, is one which receives repeated publicity in the media.  It is often the case that this publicity is of a negative nature as is generally the case when dealing with high profile persons.  My predecessor, Dr F T Mdlalose, started a process which I hope and believe will help to cut down on the uncertainty and often undue criticisms of His Majesty which take place every now and then.  The first of these steps is the creation of a proper component to manage the affairs of His Majesty to ensure that the funds allocated to him are properly spent.  At present the office staff complement allocated to His Majesty is woefully inadequate and the Provincial Service Commission has now approved a strengthened staff establishment.

I have written to His Majesty regarding the advertising and filling of the new posts and I hope to be in a position soon to begin with the process of filling these posts.

Hand in hand with this exercise, is the question of a properly documented policy document which clarifies explicitly the privileges and benefits of His Majesty.  The Cabinet recently approved a first draft of the document and His Majesty as well as the Portfolio Committee for my Department have been asked to comment on the document before a final draft is implemented.  In this regard, I understand that certain queries were raised by the Portfolio Committee and my officials are presently looking into these matters and will report back soon.  I hope, that with the implementation of these two measures, we will put an end to the sometimes unpleasant issues that come to the fore regarding His Majesty.

An aspect which I have not yet addressed is that of Communication Services.  In my Department there is a Directorate responsible for handling communication matters.  As a result of the amalgamation process, this component has, after a proper work study investigation, been significantly down-sized from 57 posts to 25.  This has naturally created great uncertainties amongst staff and resulted in difficulties in restructuring and performance in this component.  I believe that we are now reaching the end of this process.  To assist the component in becoming a fully functioning unit, my Department has issued a tender inquiry.  It is proposed that expert consultants in the field of media liaison, protocol, structure media campaigns and publications will, as part of a development and skills transfer exercise, work with the communications component for a period of six months.  It is trusted that at the end of this period the Directorate : Communications should be able to function independently and properly.

I must, however, stress that the communications issues of the Government cannot be driven by the staff in this Directorate in isolation.

It is of critical importance that the communication management structures of the Government are properly utilised and that departments keep the Directorate informed in a structured and ongoing manner about their activities and achievements.  In this way we will be able to provide the media with a compendium of activities on an ongoing basis.  Many positive programmes and projects undertaken by the administration never receive media coverage.  Perhaps it is time that we spend more time informing the media.

It would not be opportune for me to finalise this speech without returning to the burning issue of growth and development in our Province.  We all want a better and secure future, whether we are politicians, public servants, businessmen, corporate employees, farmers, traditional leaders, children or whatever else our status in this Province may be.  To achieve such a better future our activities and conduct should be driven by our common vision and a recognition that one sector of the provincial economy cannot achieve the ideal of a peaceful, secure and prosperous society which is attractive and competitive in local and global terms at the exclusion of another sector of our economy.

The Provincial Government, the business community, labour organisations, communities and all other sectors should recognise our interdependence and the need for co-operation in building our economy.  We will all benefit from our combined efforts to build such a prosperous society within our Province.

As a province of the Republic of South Africa, the South African economy will also benefit from our success.  It is therefore imperative that we be supported in our efforts by the National Government.  Whilst the Constitution spells out the functional areas of provincial legislative competence, provincial competencies such as regional planning and development, urban and rural development, agriculture and many more cannot be conducted without due regard and reference to certain national competencies, such as land affairs and water.

We should avoid the situation where the Province becomes technically incompetent to achieve our ideals for growth and development due to the fact that the Constitution assigns responsibility for certain functions to the National level of Government.  We should be enabled to deal with development and progress in an integrated manner.  To achieve this, it is of utmost importance that the National Government should work with us on matters of growth and development.  In this regard programmes such as the development of the Durban Harbour, the utilisation of strategic resources like forestry and water should become joint ventures between the National and Provincial Governments.  This will promote integrated, planned, orderly and goal directed development of the Province and ensure a fusion of expertise and resources in a manner which will benefit us all.

The equitable distribution of financial resources is another important element of our ability to deliver services within the Province.  Having regard to the population size of our Province, its unique characteristics and development backlogs, as well as its geographic profile and spread, it is imperative that we are provided with sufficient funds to deal with the social inequities in our Province.  We need to be empowered to deal with issues such as basic needs for the poor, job creation and vulnerable communities.

As a part of the transformation of our society, we should recognise the value of our human resources.  As employers we should invest in our human resources and address their development needs.  This, however, places an obligation on the individuals to work harder and use the development opportunities provided.  In return their labour should contribute in a more focused manner on the growth and development and improvement of the standards of living in the Province.

Labour relations in this Province should not only be driven by legal prescription but should develop in a mutual recognition of our common destiny and the need to work together towards the achievement of our common goals towards the ultimate benefit of our society as a whole.

Mr Chairman, in my speech I have tried to give a brief overview of the activities of my Department as well as what is envisaged for the 1997/98 financial year.

I would be remiss if, in closing, I did not take the opportunity to thank the members of Parliament, the Executive and the employees of the provincial administration for their concerted efforts in providing an effective and efficient Provincial Government service to the people of the region.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Aulsebrook to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, when looking at the budget for the Premier it is certainly one of the smallest, a mere R86 million, but let us not be deceived as the functions to be performed by this Department are certainly not truly reflected in the size of this budget.  I think the Premier has given us a clear indication of what is expected of this Department.

This vote includes the Department of the Director General and other administrative functions as outlined by the Premier and include such as:

-	Support services to His Majesty the King
-	Provincial Communications Department
-	Gaming and Betting
-	Youth Affairs
-	Provincial Air Service
-	Certainly oversees the Provincial Services Committee
-	Tender Board
-	Peace Committee and others

While accepting the Premier's Department to be a complex Department in, not only by reason that it deals with a wide variety of functions, but the individual functions themselves also have complexities of their own.

Taking into account what has been outlined, the Department is also responsible for transversal functions, which impact on all other departments.  Amongst these is the Programme for Good Governance.  This programme has been running for more than a year, and in this financial year our administration will start deriving benefits from that programme.

Let us examine the programme.  Firstly, it is intended for the entire Provincial Civil Service, from general worker to the highest ranking official.  One of the primary objectives is that of changing attitudes of civil servants, their attitude towards the public that they serve, their attitude towards their employer, this Provincial Government, their attitude towards their work.

Here the Premier has mentioned instilling a work ethic and most important, their attitude toward themselves.  The establishment of self-esteem.  Civil servants must be proud of the fact that they are civil servants and feel that they are part of our winning team.  I was pleased to hear the Premier referring to the system of merit awards that is to be introduced.  This is certainly most commendable.

Over the past two days a number of speakers were proud in acclaiming the successes of this Provincial Government over the past three years.  As politicians we are quick to take credit but often too slow to acknowledge those committed and hard working civil servants on whom we so much depend.  Let us never overlook the civil servant.

In the Good Governance Programme our main objective is to create a Government that works better and costs less.  In order to achieve this, the civil service will need to become customer orientated - honest and open - output orientated, innovative, cost effective and entrepreneurial.

This may seem to be a very ambitious programme, but it is absolutely crucial that it succeed.  Furthermore, it is appropriate that we, as the Legislature, renew our commitment to this programme especially during this budget process as everything we debate and resolve here, with the best of intentions, delivery will only be as good as our civil service.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  On a point of order.  Can we hear the point of order?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I speak in my capacity as a member of the Premier's Portfolio Committee.  The hon member is referring to the context of the Premier's speech in a typed speech, and I have not got a copy of that speech.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we ensure that all members get copies of the Premier's speech, if it was intended to be distributed to members.

MR A RAJBANSI:  My point of order, Mr Chairman, was that he typed his speech in advance and referring to the Premier's speech.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Chairman, I would like to add to that.  That I have not seen the Premier's speech.  I did not know what was contained in it.  These are my own words and I would like the member to withdraw his objections.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I withdraw that.  Now it confirms that he is the Chairperson of the Conniving Committee.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We thank you for your withdrawal, Mr Rajbansi.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  No, no, Mr Chairman, I take objection to that.  I sincerely hope that the member will withdraw those remarks as well.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I really withdraw that because he is a very good gentleman.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  You may continue, Mr Aulsebrook.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and I sincerely hope I will be credited with that time that Mr Rajbansi took up.

There are certain basics we need to address, in order to give effect to Good Governance, these being:

-	Capacity building within our administration, both individual and departmental
-	Introduce functional responsibility
-	Ensure that structures are in place and posts are filled
-	Policies and procedures clearly defined
-	Physical infrastructure provided
-	Key controls put in place
-	Support systems in place
-	And what we are busy with here in this process, the alignment of funding.

With the implementation of this programme, we have to measure output, rather than input.  That is not to say that the relationship between input and output is not a critical factor in efficiency, it certainly is.

Now I refer the members to another programme which must not be overlooked, and to which the Premier also referred.  That is the Anti-fraud Campaign which was launched by Premier Mdlalose at the beginning of this year, and given added impetus by our hon Premier, Dr Ngubane.  This campaign which is proving to be effective, is a clear indication of this Government's resolute attitude towards stamping out corruption at all levels of Government.  Taking into account what I have said, the irresponsible and inappropriate introduction of the term "slush fund", was totally uncalled for.  The goals, aims and objectives of this Government are transparent, honourable and under the leadership of our hon Premier, will never be otherwise.  Our main goal for this year is to increase and improve delivery in the most efficient manner, particularly to those communities with the greatest needs, and for this we as a Government make no apologies to our critics.

I must add that when one looks at the R158 million which has been set aside for the Premier's lead projects, which essentially will efficiently fast track delivery, it means it will receive top priority and reprioritisation of spending is one of the main features of this year's budget.

The amount represents only 0,9%.  Yes, less than 1% of our Provincial budget.  With this amount we are trying to say to the poorest people in our Province, that we, yes all of us in this House, as Government, are trying to deliver, we want to make a difference in their lives, improve their living standards.  For this there are those who criticise us and come up with misleading and derogatory terminology in describing our intentions.

AN HON MEMBER:  Are we being savaged again?  [LAUGHTER]

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  On a slightly different note, the Government in its quest for an effective and efficient administration, has embarked on a personnel audit of staff incorporated into our administration from the five previous administration entities.  This has proved to be no easy task, coupled with the fact that it is a costly and time consuming exercise for certain departments.  Yet progress is being made with certain departments already having completed their audits and furthermore having taken remedial steps where irregularities were found.

One would expect the citizens of this Province to compliment us for addressing this issue in the fashion we have.  Unfortunately, information being conveyed to them is very often misleading.  Details from interim department reports, often from single departments and statistics taken, extrapolated across the entire civil service, giving the worst case scenarios.  This is misleading the public.  It demoralises our civil servants.  It lowers the image of the members of this House in the eyes of the public.  In most cases, the source of this misinterpretation of partial information and derived from incomplete reports comes from members of this House.

I appeal to the hon members, while playing the role of watchdog, please look at the larger picture.  Understand that there is a stage where one moves from being constructive, to becoming destructive.  Knowing where that line is, is what is known as being responsible, and there is no doubt that we all would like to consider ourselves as responsible leaders.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I compliment the Premier, his Ministry, his Department, for the manner in which they have dealt with their unenviable task, and I wish to support this budget.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  You have also saved us a few minutes there in your speech.  Next on the list is Advocate Madondo who will speak for 12 minutes.

ADV M I MADONDO:  TRANSLATION:  Chairman I thank you, I want to first express my thanks and say that I am happy and hopeful, because I see our political parties our black political parties such as the ANC and IFP exhibiting a spirit of reconciliation, and a spirit of assisting one another in this House.  We all know that during times past they were at each other throats and that it was the National Party that caused them to be at each others throats, together with those who do not accept the fact that a black person is in control of Government.

It would be a mistake then if this spirit that we see exhibited here were to be exhibited here only, we must go out to the people, who are still holding on to the old ways, and we must inform them that there are no insults, and we must tell them that we are now working together, so that those people could be exercised from the spells of hatred that were planted by ~apartheid~.  They must be told that the time for insults and the songs that were sung that contained swear words and all that is over.  What we should understand is that if this Government which is led by blacks falls, that would make parties such as the National Party and other white parties who want the black people to be unsuccessful in Government very happy. 

So every black person irrespective of which political party, will not be without blame if this Government falls whether it is the National Government or the Provincial Government.  We are thankful to see the leadership and the good spirit between the leaders of these parties like ~Inkosi~ Dr Buthelezi, Father Madiba, Dr F T Mdlalose, and Father Nxamalala, and those who were supporting them.  We say this spirit must not be extinguished. T/E

THE ROLE OF THE MONARCH

Mr Chairman, I will speak on the role of the Monarchy in line with the budget.  The King symbolises the greatness, the unity and the pride of the nation.  The Zulu empire was founded by the great King Shaka during 1816.  He made the Zulus into the most powerful and feared nation in the southern hemisphere.  King Shaka's kingdom was built on a strict discipline which united hundreds of diverse communities behind the central authority of the King.

The King is like the stem and ~Amakhosi~ are like the branches of a tree.  It goes without saying that the tree is not a complete tree without the branches and the branches are virtually nothing without the stem.  ~Amakhosi~ fall directly under the control and the supervision of His Majesty the King.  ~Amakhosi~ are traditionally holding the land in trust for the King and for the subjects under their jurisdiction.

Before the colonial Government, the King was the supreme commander of the army, the ritual ruler and the source of welfare.  He exercised authority over all the homesteads including the installation and the deposing of ~Amakhosi~, demanded tribute and united his people politically.  It was the prerogative of the King to initiate the performance of politically important ceremonies such as those connected with rainmaking, the opening of the planting and harvesting seasons and the doctoring of the army.

After the defeat of the Zulu nation in 1879, the status of King Cetshwayo including that of his successors was reduced to that of an ordinary Inkosi.  His jurisdiction was limited to the Usuthu area in the district of ~Nongoma~ and he was stripped of all the powers and the authority he had.

The position of the King was taken by the Governor-General and later by the State President as the supreme chief of the black people observing the traditional law and customs.  The colonial Government had thereby succeeded in alienating the allegiance of ~Amakhosi~ from the King to the head of the colonial Government.

The defunct KwaZulu Government Services redeemed the status of the King and he became the titular head of the said Government, but it fell short of restoring functions and the powers of the King.  The KwaZulu Government Services assigned those functions and powers to the Ministry of Traditional Affairs, leaving the King with only ceremonial functions.

While the ANC accept that, according to the present political dispensation the King could no longer perform executive, judiciary and legislative powers as it was the case in the olden days.  It is the view that the King should not only be seen as the figurehead of the Provincial Government, who only officiates at the opening of the Provincial Parliament, but his role and powers in the Government of KwaZulu-Natal be clearly defined.

This will obviate the negative publicity of the King's budget.  This Government must also be seen to be restoring allegiance of ~Amakhosi~ to the King as traditionally it should be.  That will definitely protect ~Amakhosi~ from being manipulated and exploited by the political leaders for their own benefit.

The installing and the deposing of ~Amakhosi~ is traditionally falling within the domain of the King and for the sake of peace and impartiality it should not be removed from the King.

[Chairman, that is why King Shaka was praised it was said] [we know at the time of the Nyuswa dispute what a vital role the dog of King Shaka which was known as Xhosa held in the inauguration of that ~Inkosi~].

To date no finality has been reached as to the precise role of the King in the Provincial Government.  The King has been sidelined during the establishment of the House of Traditional Leaders and during the establishment of the Council of Traditional Leaders.  In some instances the King was forced to take legal action against the Provincial Government.

The pain is worse than he experienced under the ~apartheid~ regime as it is caused by his fellow blacks who are his subjects.  If the allegiance we all claim to be giving to the King is not a token one, such a glaring mistake be rectified without much ado.

Those elements who refuse to pay allegiance to our King on the grounds that they are not Zulu-speaking people, should not be listened to at all.  We had been made to pay taxes having no say in the administration of the country.  That money has been utilised in turning our people into killing machines and to further third force and hit squad activities of the National Party.

More so, everybody who is within the KwaZulu Government boundaries owes allegiance to the King of KwaZulu-Natal in the same way as any person resident in Britain does and other countries which still retain the institution of ~Ubukhosi~.

The King is happy to assume the role of the constitutional Monarchy in the same way as the Queen or the King of England does.  He will also like to retain the position of being the head of ~Ubukhosi~ and to be an arbiter in disputes pertaining to ~Ubukhosi~.  The whole administration of ~Ubukhosi~ should be in the hands of the King, otherwise the institution of ~Ubukhosi~ would lose its value and its original meaning.  ~Amakhosi~ will only be there as the conduit pipes of the ruling political party.  The King is now not aligned to any political party and he is completely above party politics.

I will now move to the King's budget and his involvement in the preparation of the budget.  The present Government does not approach the King's budget with the dignity it deserves.  There has been negative publicity on the King's budget.  Reports on certain irregularities in the purchase of royal palaces' utensils ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think the hon member Mr Nel is rising on a point of order.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, I just want to know whether the hon member would take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question?

ADV M I MADONDO:  No, I will not take a question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You may continue.

ADV M I MADONDO:  Thank you, sir.  Reports on certain irregularities in the purchase of royal palaces' utensils, created the impression that the said irregularities were either committed by the King's officials or by his office, whereas they had been committed by the Government officials.

At present the King's budget is prepared by various departments and there is no central mechanism in place to control the King's budget.  This gives much room to fraud and irregularities as reported last year.  The Department of Public Works' expenditure report conflicted with the Premier's office expenditure report.  The media alleged that part of the money was not authorised.

The conflicting reports are to the exact sum of money utilised in the upkeep of the royal palaces, and in the maintenance of the King and his family clearly show that there is absolutely no coordinated approach in the handling of the King's financial affairs.

In one of the Saturday's Newspapers dated 25 May 1996, it was published that the King received R1,4 million a month, which is not true.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left. 

ADV M I MADONDO:  The erstwhile Premier Dr F T Mdlalose was quoted as saying that, "It is hard to make the King realise that his spending must be brought under control".

The King receives a salary which is less than that of a Provincial Minister.  He does not have medical aid facilities.  Some of his palaces do not even show that they are palaces of the King of the great nation like the Zulus.  Paint is peeling off, no furniture and the broken windowpanes which have not been repaired for some time.  The King pays towards the tertiary education of his children.

The Premier's office has the total control over the budget not taking into account the interests of the King and that of his office.  The negative publicity regarding the King's expenditure wrongly or incorrectly projects the King as an inactive and extravagant person.

Presently, the King plays a pivotal role in uniting the nation and people of various political groupings.  He is actively involved in the promotion of rural development working very close with the non-governmental organisations.  He also encourages ~Amakhosi~ to be actively involved in the development of their areas.

He is also involved in the disputes resolution.  He urges ~Amakhosi~ to be above party politics and he acts as an ambassador of the Province in the promotion of the investments.

The Reed Dance ~Ukuweshwama~ and ~Umkhosi~ ~Welembe~ be supported as they contribute largely to the nation building and reconciliation.  If we have a budget which is arrived at with the consultation and the co-operation of the King and controlled by an official in the King's office all these problems will be obviated and the King's budget thereby be handled with the respect it deserves.

It is not correct and just to withhold the funds for the King's ceremonies, simply because the King does not toe the line of the ruling political party.  Last year the King announced that he will have the Silver Jubilee ceremony.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

ADV M I MADONDO:  The said ceremony was approved.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you very much.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Adv Schutte to address the House for six minutes, according to my amended list.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I cannot but at the outset commend the hon Premier for taking the initiatives he has taken with regard to the finances of this Province.

He has in his own programme, and that is clear, given priority to financing and the budgetary aspects of this Province.  He has recognised that as head of Government of this Province, he bears the final responsibility for the direction this Province is going.  That in fact means to a great extent the prioritisation and the allocation of the spending of public funds and, of course, the monitoring of the spending of those funds after they have been spent.

In setting up the various structures to deal with this, and I can only refer to the Budgetary Council, and there can be also argument about the composition of that, the hon Premier has acknowledged that the money should be spent along sound business principles and practices, transparently, and according to a long term macro plan.

From our side we wish him well in these endeavours and we will give him all the support necessary to accomplish this.  As I have said, finances and where and how to spend is very important.  It is a crucial indication as to where this Province is heading.

I believe that there are also important political issues, that are at this stage as important, to the long term progress and stability of this Province.  The one issue that I believe that this Province has been a leader on, until very recently, is the question of a Provincial Constitution.  It is a matter that I believe should again be revisited for a number of reasons.

First of all, regarding the capital.  This is a matter that should be dealt with.  It cannot be left in abeyance indefinitely.  As long as there is uncertainty about this matter it will invite controversy with regard to related decisions, and we have just seen the one regarding the building of offices.  This will not go away, it will have to be dealt with, and the sooner it can be dealt with the better.

The Monarchy has just been referred to.  It is another matter that must be dealt with.  We are indeed a multi-cultural society and cultural recognition and the autonomy of cultural groupings should also be dealt with.  As long as there is security for cultural groupings this Province will be stable.

Also the recognition of traditional leaders within the Province, should be dealt with in a Constitution as soon as possible.

I believe that there is substantial goodwill and there has been a lot of consolidation done and work done on these issues, so that within a fairly short period we should be able to complete a Provincial Constitution.

Political issues have a habit of becoming more complex.  Sometimes becoming insurmountable if they are not confronted meaningfully and resolved.  I believe that we have the opportunity of dealing with these issues as soon as possible.  Sadly in this respect the longer we delay and the closer the election comes, the more difficult it may be to resolve.

According to press reports, recently, the hon Premier has called for a major socio-economic development initiative in this Province.  I would like to support him wholeheartedly in this regard .  This Province has immense potential.  We have to do everything in our power to ensure that we realise its full potential.  We need a concerted effort by all interested groups to ensure that we realise this potential.

Some of the matters that, I believe, should be dealt with in this regard is firstly, the full development of our tourist potential.  This Province should be the hub of the flow of tourists and not the Western Province.  Just to refer to one aspect, we have a year round season, which the Western Cape do not have.

Secondly, the development of the rural areas should be given priority.  In this regard I would like to refer to an opinion expressed very recently by the Council for African Thought which is chaired by Professor Vilakazi.  This Council has expressed great concern that not enough is done to promote agriculture, particularly in the rural areas.

I cannot support him more.  The fact is that the rural areas are the heartland of this Province, and if those areas can again become economically viable we will solve ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left. 

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  We will solve so many other problems.  The fact is, also closely related to this, is the question of the land tenureship system.  That is also something that must be addressed because if we do not address that, that land will not become economically viable.  I am not calling for the abolishment of the traditional tenureship system.  I in fact believe that the system can be reformed.  There can be more acknowledgement of it as well, and by doing that we can make the land available for economic use.

The proper development of the Tugela Basin should also be given priority.  The negative aspects of certain labour laws on employment should also be considered.  I am very grateful that the hon Premier has referred to this in his speech.

If we jointly in this Province address these matters and others then this Province can become a model Province and that is what we should aim for.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Next on the list is the hon member Mrs Mkhize who will address the House for ten minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I thank the hon Premier for the most informative speech that he has given.  More so for the integrity, determination and straightforwardness that he has shown within the short time during which he has lead this Province.

When I look at the situation in which we are in this country,  I am reminded of the time when the Israelites had crossed the Red Sea, liberated from the oppressive Egyptians, but found themselves in a desert.  In the desert there was no food, no water, no trees for shelter and they suffered from hunger and disease.  Some of these Israelites wanted to go back to Egypt.  I do not think they meant this but it was because of the situation they found themselves in.

Well, we in this chamber have no cause to remember Egypt.  We are not as hungry.  If we put our ears on the ground and listen, there are an astonishing majority there that in their disillusionment are crying, they remember Egypt.  This will soon change from the hope that they have got on us, to despair and loss of hope, which is a very good recipe for violence, ungovernability and with the result of this disillusionment in our communities.

Where should we go from here?  It is true that we have gained political freedom, but here we are.  We have not obtained liberation from our real enemies as I quoted from the preamble of the IFP Constitution.  These are poverty, hunger, unemployment, disease, ignorance, insecurity, homelessness and moral decay.

We in this chamber, working together should try and strive to achieve this that we have not managed to liberate ourselves from.  We have got to liberate our people from very strong forces that are invisible.  It is much better if you want to liberate a person from a thing that you can see but, as it is, we cannot use guns to fight these forces.  They are invisible.

In this chamber, we can fight these enemies by unity.  We need people in this chamber who will forget their political affiliation when it comes to development.  We need people in this chamber who will not deliberately logjam development funds and prevent their accessibility to the people, just because the person who will be handling those funds will be IFP or ANC or National Party.  We need to be seen to be all united in delivering.

It is a fact that a leader must lead.  That is why you will find that those who lead are given a bit more power to make decisions than those that they lead, lest their prerogative as being leaders loses its meaning.  It is true that there are issues that the President of this country has to take decisions upon, as a leader.  It is also true that the Premier of a province has to take some decision in some matters and of course with some consultation.

I will say that there are funds which we know about that are run by the President of this country, for the good of the nation.  Why should this Province be deprived of the privilege of funds that are easily accessible to the needy communities?

People out there are in need.  They are without jobs, they need to be helped in order to help themselves.  They must be helped to initiate self-help projects.  They need water.  They must have a living.  Some people may argue and say funds should rather be directed for building schools rather than development.  Yes, this may be true, but what is more true is that no child will go to school when she is hungry.  No child will go to school when she has to travel more than five kilometres in order to fetch water.

Well, I feel these go hand in hand, development is very important.  I at times get disappointed and concerned when I hear my colleagues across talking, or in fact attacking Emandleni-Mathleng Camp, which is an institution for development.  How does this put us as a resource for delivery in this Province?

Emandleni-Mathleng Camp is one institution that is an answer to our problems of lack of skills among our youth.  It is an answer to provide those children of ours who cannot afford to go to technikons or universities.  At ~Emandleni-Mathleng~ Camp our youth are taught to do farming, [to own fowls, to own pigs, cattle, to do all sorts of farming].

They are taught computer literacy and office work.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  They are taught sewing, knitting and many other skills.  This is done very extensively.  Children from different political affiliations are admitted to that institution.

Speaking about unions, this structure of work is for the workers' liberation.  Without the unions employers would exploit the workers.  So unions are very essential, but my concern is that the unions have super powers.  They can do anything using the powers they have.  They can become the most dangerous monster if they cannot control themselves and they are not considerate.  They can capitulate any industry and they can wipe out any country's economy.  They can misdirect and capitulate any Government.  They can cause unemployment, violence and crime in a country.

It worries me to think that the Government of this day has got such a big component of the unions.  In fact, I feel that the unions should be taught to understand the problem that they can cause in a country.

With those words, Mr Chairman, I wholeheartedly support the speech by the hon Premier.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Mkhize.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr I C Meer who will address the House for 12 minutes.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Chairman, I want to compliment the hon Premier for his valuable contribution today.  I am sad that this debate, which is very fundamental to our understanding of where we have come; where we are now and to where we are proceeding, that there is such a poor attendance in the House.

One respect we can pay the Premier of this House is that when he speaks when his vote is under discussion, we want the highest attendance.  The person who is in charge of the ship of State in this Province, is thus given due recognition.  We learn from all the contributions, not only what has come from him, on the Premier's vote.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR I C MEER:  I was going to make notes of what the Premier was going to say or was saying.  I was so gripped by what he was saying that I made only one note and as you know, I do not speak from notes.  The only thing I wrote is, "Sobriety thy name is Ben Ngubane".

I want that tradition to remain with the Premier.  You know, I learnt that changing horses in midstream creates great problems.  I now find that changing Premiers in midstream does not create that great a problem.

Sir, we would like to give you even a bigger amount of money and I speak now as a member of the Finance Committee.  I say that it is important that we make this House realise why we cannot give you more money.  The same applies to every member of the Cabinet over whom you preside.

There was a time when we said, that when democracy comes, all the important points that were raised by the hon Mrs Mkhize, poverty etc, etc, from the Constitution of the IFP, would have been fulfilled.  We know that that is not possible.  Let me highlight a few points and this is my very personal view.  I am not speaking as a representative of a political party.

South Africa has to find and pay in interest alone over R3 billion per month, in respect of the satanic expenses of the National Party, who oppressed us and oppressed our neighbour states.  That is the interest alone.  R39 billion per year in all.  In other words, over R3 billion per month.  If that money was available to us for normal expenditure we would have given every one of your Executive members a higher amount and we would have got a higher amount from the Central Government.

This is a very important point, and again I say, I am making this as a personal observation.  My own viewpoint is this: that money is not a debt incurred by any one of us here, and I include among them the reborn democrats.  [LAUGHTER]  This is not our debt. It is the debt of our oppressors.

If you have in democracy abandoned your past, no one can say that you must still pay the debt incurred in the wrongdoings of the past.  The only people who have come out with this clearly are the church leaders who have said that that debt should be wiped out and that applies to many parts of Africa.

I go further and say, we are paying that amount in respect of interest alone.  I was brought up theologically to say that to pay interest was totally prohibited, it was unacceptable and in the Islamic economics there is a complete prohibition on interest, taking or giving.  The Quran prohibits it.

I know my dad when he gave out big loans to farmers and gave credit on long terms as a shopkeeper and when there was drought, they paid even five years later, not a single cent was charged as interest because he believed in the Quranic context, that that was wrong and not payable.

Similarly the R39 billion and even the total amount of debt owing is not payable by democratic South Africa, it must be wiped out and wiped out by those who made money out of ~apartheid~, in the cheap labour that existed during those long dark nights, in which we suffered some outside, some inside but whether you were outside or inside it was a whole prison in which we suffered together.  Whether you were in a particular gaol or whether you were outside, yet you were in prison in the land of ~apartheid~.

We must understand this tremendous burden the past national debt, the darkness of that black night is still with us.  That is why poverty is still with us.  That is why we cannot find enough money for education, which is why we cannot find enough money for health services.

I learnt my politics under a great socialist woman.  Her name was Mabel Palmer.  She was a Fabian, a very interesting person.  You saw a photograph of her in a bathing costume with George Bernard Shaw on a beach in Britain.  She taught us, and in those days there was not a single colony which was free yet.  All of Africa and the whole of Asia was suffering under tremendous imperialist exploitation, where the wealth of those countries was drained and went to Europe.

This great woman Mabel Palmer used to tell us: "the people of Africa and Asia want self-government.  Do not talk to them about good Government and say Britain gives you good Government in India and you must hence not have self-government."

We achieved self-government or freedom in two respects. Politically and legally the burden of the past is over.  That is why we are here.  This building was not built for you and me. This building was built in 1887 when they started it. In 1889 it was completed.  In this very Legislature, year after year, laws were passed to oppress everyone who was not white.

We are now going to find a solution to that.  We will have to cleanse this House - "Geza umuzi."  We will have to do the real correction to see that we cleanse this House from all the oppressive laws of the past.

No matter where we are, in ~Ulundi~ or Pietermaritzburg, (we are not bound by physically one place), we are talking of the errors of the past which spread from ~Ulundi~ to every part of this beautiful land, which Shaka gave us and told us that we must unite and govern, not divide and govern.  Here we have this task.  From government to self-government, and how do we proceed to good Government?  We want the combination of the two that is self-government and good government.

Colonial people wanted freedom.  They were not saying that they wanted good government, but we say we want both.  And we say we shall achieve both with people like the hon Dr Ben Ngubane at the head of political affairs in KwaZulu-Natal.

I want to say that when we deal with the Premier's vote, let us remember that the Premier is not the Premier of a political party.  The Premier himself must not be tempted into that narrowness.  He must step out of it and become the Premier of all the people of this Province, all the political parties and in that capacity he has to deliver what he is capable of delivering.

When I made that note that "SOBRIETY THY NAME IS BEN NGUBANE" I was interrupted.  I was given what the press has to say, the Press cutting service memo, I do not know who prepared this.  My mind went up to the first page.  "Ngubane threatens to alter Committee.  Abandoning his written speech." He made remarks about the source of facts appearing in the press about the Public Accounts Committee.

I want the hon Premier to do me a personal favour.  I am a member of the Finance Committee, sir, and I must say when he made that statement that night I went and I thought and thought and thought as to where I had gone wrong.  Sir, please attend that Finance Committee meeting.  We have collectively tried our very best to eliminate anything which can be heightened by the press against the dignity of this House, and the dignity of a first black Government of this God given part of South Africa.

I want to say this, that my own experience in that Committee has been that we have by and large worked together unitedly.  If we have made mistakes we are prepared to admit them, but please come there, discuss this matter with us because it has left much pain. This is not the ~Ngubane~ that I know.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR I C MEER:  "Threatening to abolish this Committee or to appoint somebody else".  This is Verwoerd speaking but somehow it is wrong, it is not you, Mr Premier.  I want us to understand that to err is human (as long as we do not prove our humanity too often).  It is important that we err and it is human and it is also very important that we are not perfect.  I do not claim to be perfect.

I was trained as a little child to say perfection only lay with Allah the supreme Being and we are all imperfect.  But in your imperfection we see perfection in the sense that you represent this new growing South African community.

You have come from the National Parliament.  You have come down to us, but we do not want you to come further down and descend into the arena, where the conflict will create such a powerful dust that it may obscure your vision.  We do not want the Premier to have an obscured vision.

Sir, there are many things that have to be done.  And we have to go a long way.  I want to pledge my personal and even my party's support for a Government which is based on frugality, efficiency and cleanliness in the administration.  I have a feeling that you have been placed in that position to lead us further in the years that lie ahead of us; to see that we achieve what our forefathers believed would be achieved, when we get access to a Parliament of this kind.

We have to create our own tradition.  We have to create a tradition which did not come to us from Europe.  We have to create a tradition which is part of our own continent.  We have to create a tradition of unite and govern and you have that opportunity.  You are at the head of ten individuals who constitute the Cabinet and no matter from how many political parties they are drawn, your task is to see that you have that unity.  And we will support you to the hilt in giving you enough money, but at the same time have a rethink on the question of the money that you have to pay in order to cleanse the past, in order to pay what is totally prohibited in my own theological background and that is R39 billion in interest per year on a debt of the National Party.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

MR I C MEER:  I thank you for your contribution and I give full support to the amount you are asking and the budget of the Premier should be passed unanimously.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Roger Burrows who will address the House for six minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, I would like to compliment the last speaker on a truly outstanding address.  You know, that is where we have changed in three years, that we can hear from whichever party it comes and we can praise a speech that is excellent in form and in content and it does not matter which party the man or the woman comes from.  Well done.

The Premier truly, to use Comrade's analogy, the running Comrades I mean, not the Amandla Comrades, hit the road running.  He hit the road running.  He came to us with ideas, with good initiatives.  Sure there have been a few a few potholes some of which we will touch on today.  I think the temporary licences in gambling is one we will handle on another occasion.  The budget, and I am going to touch on it in a moment, but essentially the Premier is leading the race I think for an extremely good Provincial Government.  I must say that candidly.

The Democratic Party has been criticised for various things, for saying things out of the House, for apparently denigrating, I think was the phrase somebody used about us.  I want to make one thing absolutely clear.  Not just the two of us and not just the members who work in our party outside in this Province, but the members who voted for us and our supporters believe optimistically in the goodness of what this Province can do.  They believe we can do things otherwise we would not be here, and we would not be fighting to achieve better.

I am glad that the Premier, in I think a very good address, spent the bulk of what he had to say this afternoon on focusing on good governance and the governance of this Province.

I too, like the hon Mr Meer, picked up this document on press cuttings and this is one I had not seen.  It is on the last page and it is the kind of unfortunate reading that points fingers to us in this House.  Here I must say mea culpa the kind of reading.  "Poor showing by KZN", from today's Mercury apparently.

	KwaZulu-Natal has the worst track record of spending for its school feeding budget allocated by the National Ministry of Finance and poor accounting has led to thousands of children being left unfed for nearly two years.  According to figures released by Health Minister Nkosazana Zuma, only 18%, R20 million of the almost R113 million budget granted for school feeding have been spent.

I know because I serve on the subcommittee looking at that school feeding scheme, that we said and we agreed that the money should not be spent until proper accounting from the receiving bodies, the schools, had been obtained, and that was not received.  But the report appears to suggest that it is a departmental or governmental fault that this has not occurred which, is not true. I must say categorically it is not true.

The end result is exactly the same.  There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of children who should have received school feeding, that did not receive school feeding and we in this House must ask ourselves why?

I have an amendment to propose on the Premier's budget and I propose it as follows:

	THAT THIS HOUSE -
	(a)	moves to suspend from Vote 1 : Premier, the sum of R158,8 million; and
	(b)	to allocate the amount to the following votes:
		Vote 5  Education			 R60,0  million
		Vote 9  The South African 
			 Police Service			 R40,0  million
		Vote 11  Traditional and 
			 Environmental Affairs		 R18,8  million
		Vote 12  Transport			 R40,0  million 
							R158,8 million

This R158 million would follow very much the kind of programme of spending that we have spelt out in our documentation previously and which we spelt out during the debate yesterday.  I will touch on each of those.  That is still coming.

The Minister of Agriculture, will be glad to know, that we will deal with that at the appropriate point, when we shift some other money into agriculture.

The second area I would like to just touch on today is the question on the policy towards His Majesty the King and I know the hon Mr Gwala is following me.  His name is on the speaker's list and I have no doubt he will wish to react to what I am about to say.  I am reacting to what he said the day before yesterday.  [LAUGHTER]

The Democratic Party policy on the Zulu Monarchy was spelt out two years ago.  As far as we are aware we are the only party that has a written document accepted by the Congress of our party spelling out an attitude to the Monarchy and traditional leadership.  I am more than happy to give members a copy.  Just to spell out some of the points.

	The Zulu Monarch be recognised constitutionally in the KwaZulu-Natal Constitution.

	That such recognition, be confined to acknowledgement of the Monarch's role as King of the Zulu nation and not that of King of all the people of KwaZulu-Natal.

So yes, we do differ with the IFP and the ANC's views on that.  That is one of our differing points.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  Such recognition not be territorially based but connected to the Zulu people wherever they may be.  The vast majority of the Zulu people reside in this Province and so we have special responsibility for the Monarch.

I just want to say to the Premier, I have had sight of the confidential document, I am on the Portfolio Committee.  I would appreciate it if he would just take it home himself and look at it from the point of view of the changed circumstances around the whole position of the Monarch between the two parties, because I think the document was originally drafted when there were tensions about the position of the Monarch that may not exist now.  I really do think that the whole draft has got to be rethought.  That is simply my position.

The last point I want to make is that in governance we need to get back to basics.  Yes, a zero based budget.  Yes, we need to assess staff requirements.  Quite frankly, I think we should have senior staff in this Province appointed on three year contracts.  If they perform you renew the contract, if they do not perform they are gone and let us do it that way.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Let us keep to the hours of the day that public servants should serve.  Every hour, every minute of the day they are not serving is time stolen.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Our next speaker is the hon member Mr Gwala who will speak for ten minutes.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  Mr Chairman and the hon members of the House.  I rise to commend the budget speech made by the hon the Premier of the Province for KwaZulu-Natal, Dr B S Ngubane.  Your well prepared budget speech, Mr Premier, covers all the aspects that are relevant for discussions with a view of shaping a new vision for this Department.

I would like to make a comment about a few things with regard to Emandleni-Mathleng Youth Camp and further deliberate on the issue of building development at ~Ulundi~, although the latter affects more than two departments.

~Emandleni-Mathleng~ Youth Camp, is a brain child of the hon Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi, whose vision has helped many communities since the 80s, when the rate of school leavers without jobs went out of proportion.

The issue of economic sanctions made things worse as the number of school leavers and drop-outs had nothing to do, except resorting to criminal activities.

The former KwaZulu Legislative Assembly supported the Department of the Chief Ministry in establishing a centre where youngsters who were unable to complete their maximum education, be given a whole year training in self-help skills, so that when they go out to their respective communities, they would be able to help themselves for a living, in creating small industries such as poultry farming, block making, vegetable gardening etcetera.

~Emandleni-Mathleng~ Youth Camp is there for that, and had contributed tremendously towards self-help projects and youth discipline in the past 15 years.

There is a need for more funding so that a similar project be extended to other areas such as far north and far south of KwaZulu-Natal, since the problem of school leavers without proceeding to universities and to industries has not been redressed.  More institutions such as ~Emandleni-Mathleng~ Youth Camp are actually in demand.

It is therefore a disgrace for the hon member of this House, Mr Nhlanhla Ngidi of the ANC to criticise the increase in subsidy, as if the Provincial Government is wasting money.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  For Mr Ngidi to blame the IFP aligned youth attending the training is grossly mischievous.  It was the UDF acting on the instructions of the then ANC mission in exile to boycott anything attached to Buthelezi and the KwaZulu Government.

It is unfortunate for the ANC that Emandleni-Mathleng Youth Camp is still alive, because the ANC in fact has forbidden the ANC aligned youth to attend the camp as they miscalculated the sequence of events, thinking that KwaZulu as KwaZulu would be over by now.  That was a serious mistake on the part of the ANC.

Those who purposely distort facts, saying that SPUs are trained at Emandleni-Mathleng Youth Camp are either mentally defected or they have become the victims of their own political propaganda.

The matter regarding ~Ulundi~ building plans being shelved by the Finance Committee, and that the agreement was reached that funds made available for the building of the chamber for the House of Traditional Leaders will be used for another development plan, is a grossly misrepresentation aimed to divide the nation.

The ANC's attempts to delay the development progress in ~Ulundi~ is part of the ongoing campaign to dismantle ~Ulundi~.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  I was not surprised to learn that the ANC Chief Whip, Mrs Ina Cronje, has already declared Pietermaritzburg the sole capital of KwaZulu-Natal so that the Provincial Legislature would function efficiently.  Her call is nothing more than a recipe for disorder and mockery.

The Provincial Legislature for KwaZulu-Natal spent thousands of Rands on the Cadman Commission, to investigate where the capital for this Province should be located.  Due to the complexity of the matter, the Commission recommended that the matter be put to rest by declaring both Pietermaritzburg and ~Ulundi~ as an interim capital for the Province.

Of course, it is costly for a province to maintain two capitals as it is costly for the National Government to have administration offices in Pretoria and Parliament in Cape Town.

If Mrs Ina Cronje is an expert for capital locations why did the Province had to spend thousands of Rands to hire a Commission to investigate when a "Jackal-of-all-Trades" is around and the matter should have been settled long ago, without spending a cent on it.

The kind of threat to suspend the building development at ~Ulundi~ is not new to us.  It is an old trick used by successive Governments, aimed to frustrate the people of KwaZulu.  The building project must go ahead without hinderance.  We are not going to allow ourselves to be intimidated by whomever in this Legislature or outside of this Parliament.

The news report that quotes the Finance Committee of having said that the plans for the new ~Ulundi~ office complex were "very extravagant", is a travesty of truth.  It is a flight of fancy from the IFP detractors in the media fraternity.  It is unfortunate that news reporters should distort ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear Mr Nel please?  Sorry.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question on that report that he says is a travesty?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question?

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  I will take it tomorrow.  I will take it tomorrow.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You may continue.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  It is unfortunate that news reporters, should distort the facts by confusing statements made by individuals, with the decisions of the Finance Committee.  This is misleading, I tell you.

The fact is that the Finance Committee has merely decided on the first phase of the project, that R40 million be allocated to start with the construction of the administrative offices for both the Premier and the Director General's offices.

The Finance Committee would not have adopted such a myopic view on the necessity to develop ~Ulundi~, when it is so confounded with the problem of insufficient office space.  A substantial amount is spent annually by the Provincial Government through renting offices in the congested Pietermaritzburg city.


TRANSLATION:  The offices are very cramped here at Pietermaritzburg, even the offices of the Ministers are cramped.  Where have you ever heard Mr Chairman, of Ministers sharing one office.  

The parking is cramped we do not have proper facilities.  As we are here the Parliament is very cramped, the chairs of the members, the one is on top of the other just so that Pietermaritzburg can be the Capital.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Two minutes left].

MR M B GWALA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  As we are here Mr Speaker, you do not know where we sleep.  But at ~Ulundi~ you know that we sleep in houses that were built for us as members of Parliament.  T/E

Was it not the recommendation of the Executive to build both the new offices and the chamber for the House of Traditional Leaders?  It would not make sense therefore for the Finance Committee to recommend scaling down one and suspending the other building project.  We will discuss the farms in future.  We have to discuss farms.

The IFP led Government of this Province will not be deterred from delivering essential infrastructure and services to the needy.  Traditional leaders are a bulwark of this Province's social and political structure.  Their role cannot be overlooked.

The Cabinet must go ahead with the construction plan of the new complex at ~Ulundi~ and ignore the individual's interest aimed to frustrate and divide the nation.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Gwala.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Miss Nahara who will address the House for 12 minutes.

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I might find it a little bit difficult to talk.  I am already scared of the noise that I am hearing now.  I am no longer used to that, but I will try my best.  I am coming back again as a back penny repeating what I said yesterday but maybe in different words.

I would like to congratulate our Premier for the wonderful speech he has made today.  Actually enlightening some of us on what his Department is doing, including the information booklet that he has provided us with.  I thank the Premier for that.

Coming back to my highlights of yesterday, about the two structures that I really feel is important that we should have in this Parliament.  I would like just to elaborate a little bit more on what I did not say yesterday.

I will start with the Women's Caucus.  My reason for this is the recommendation I will be making at the end, I want everyone to be clear, including our Premier, because I am just going to be knocking at his door all the time.

The function of the Women's Caucus would basically be the following:

1.	To monitor the implementation of the ..........
2.	Sharing information on gender issues in all legislation and lobbying.
3.	To link with other women's organisations outside this Parliament and to monitor their empowerment programmes, that this Legislature should actually have begun or should be beginning very soon to run.

For these functions to actually work out or for this Women's Caucus to actually function effectively, we will need support services, which is a secretariat staff in the support services.  We need office space that must be provided for us in both chambers here and at ~Ulundi~.  An office that will be fully equipped with the necessary material as an office, so that we are able to work.  We will be able to communicate with people.  Whilst we have to communicate with people, right now nobody knows how to reach out to the Women's Caucus here.

That is the reason why we need office space in both chambers, here and at ~Ulundi~ and support services so that we are able to communicate with people in the relevant structures that we need to communicate with.

The second one is the Gender Committee.  We have a subcommittee under the Premier's Portfolio Committee whereby I think, if I am not mistaken, my colleagues will also correct me, wherein we have about five people.  This committee has a sole mandate to research the possibility of legislation on gender issues in this House.

As much as this subcommittee is doing its work, it has done some research and so forth, I personally find it a bit difficult for this committee to work, to come up with something quite concrete because it is a small committee that depends on the mandate of the Premier's Portfolio Committee.

I therefore want to suggest that the Premier, it will be in the Premier's powers to do that, we need a select or a standing Gender Committee in this House, that will work broader than the subcommittee is doing now.

The functions of the committee will be:

1.	To share information with other portfolio committees and to lobby other portfolio committees on legislation that we will be having, whatever legislation comes up in this House.
2.	To scrutinize the gender content of all legislation that passes through this Legislature.
3.	To provide the public with information on gender issues, legislation and policies that are being carried out in this House.
4.	To build relationships with other bodies like the National Gender Select Committee, like other Gender Committees in other provinces.  We need to work with other provinces.  We cannot do it all by ourselves as KwaZulu-Natal.  We need a link with other legislations as well.
5.	To establish communication with other relevant bodies like the Human Rights and other bodies that are around here in KwaZulu-Natal.

It is therefore important, with the subcommittee we cannot do all this work because the subcommittee can only function on the mandate of the Portfolio Committee.  It is therefore important that we have this committee.

Our Premier rightfully has indicated earlier on that very soon we would be having a Green Paper or a White Paper on gender issues.  I feel that for this to happen we actually need to start things in a proper way by having a select committee that will assist that the White Paper can come to this House very soon.  I would have preferred it if the Premier had said in two weeks time, but he did not say so.

My other reason for these structures to be split up and that we need them in this House.  Apart from communicating with other people outside this Parliament we also have problems in this House here.  If I may just indicate a few.

If we look at our Cabinet here, there are no female Ministers, all men.  That is the Cabinet and where are we?  We are nowhere. [They talk in private and we are left out].  

It will be too late.  There are only three female Whips in this House.  We have two female chairpersons here.  That is one chairperson of the Standing Committee and a chairperson of Committees.  That is all and we have got quite a number of portfolios.

Recently the Premier appointed the Minister of Environmental Affairs and also a Minister of Safety and Security.  The Premier himself is also the Minister of Finance.  The question is, were there no other people that could be appointed?

For instance, are there no other females, capable females in this House who could have been appointed Ministers?  The answer is yes, but the problem here lies in that this Cabinet is not gender sensitive.  The reason why the Premier would look and look and actually pile up work on somebody who has already got two Ministries if one may say.  When I look across there I see capable women who could have been Ministers by now.

One other thing I want to say, our Cabinet fears to have a Minister of Finance as a woman, [We will misuse the money].  We will actually handle the money properly, I can tell you that.  Try us, you will see.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  One other confusion as well.  When I look at the budget of our Premier, I did not see anything wrong but I picked up just one thing, maybe it is Fatima's confusion.  You have the Peace Committee.  The Peace Committee, most of the things fall under Safety and Security, but it is funded under the Premier's office.

I ask myself a question, is this R5 million a floating amount?  Why can it not be given to us, at least we have something to do with this money?  But these are the overlapping structures if one actually looks at it.

It is therefore important for us to have these structures because we are not going to fight to say this is wrong, we do not want this.  It is through these structures, whereby we will be able to address the problem that I have raised of gender sensitivity within the Legislature, within the Cabinet, throughout departments.

You again look at the selection of senior officers in departments.  The Service Commission, whenever it selects senior officers for departments it will actually pick up on a man despite that there are women.  If you look at this booklet here, directors are all men.  Director Mr so and so, Assistant Director Miss or Mrs so and so.

These are the kind of things that are not healthy, if we say this is the people's Government, and we have said in our Constitution that we want a gender sensitive Government.  So this represents the Government that is not gender sensitive enough, it is only sensitive by saying, but not practically.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  Thank you.  What I would like to say, what we really request is that these two structures be speedily set up.  It is our appeal that under the Premier's budget some funds should be allocated to the gender training programmes.

One has gone through the budget of the Premier.  You have got all kinds of developments and what not, but one thing missing in the Premier's budget is the gender training programmes.  Gender training programmes are not just for women but it is for all other people.  When we talk about gender we are not talking about women because the confusion that arises here is whenever one talks about gender sensitivity and gender empowerment, people will think [The women want to control us].

It is not so.  We need gender programmes for both of us.  We are all on a learning curve.  Therefore the gender programmes will not only be empowering women but it is the gender programmes, the kind of programmes that is actually going to empower all of us so that we do understand when we say this is not gender sensitive, what are we talking about. 

That is the recommendation that I was talking about.  I have got two recommendations to make.

1.	It is setting up the structures.
2.	It is allocating funds for gender sensitive programmes.

I do not think I have any further proposals other than these.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Might I have your time.

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  One would appreciate that this House actually take this matter up very seriously and not as a joke, as it usually does.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Redinger who will address us for eight minutes.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Through you, Mr Chairman, I would like to wish our new Premier well in his task.  We wish him lots of strength and health, and most of all God's blessing in his tasks that he has to undertake for this Province.

Mr Premier, through you Mr Chairman, we are very proud subjects of this Province of ours.  We are very proud that we are making progress.  I think your report today reflected real progress as far as the management of our Province is concerned.

In and amongst your responsibilities, Mr Premier, is looking after the portfolio of the Monarch.  It was quite a while ago, at the beginning of last year, in a portfolio committee that I requested that we set up a protocol for the Monarch, as to how his affairs should be managed, that the Monarch himself should know what the guidelines are, as set down for him.

I am very, very thankful that your Department has been working hard at this, that we are in fact in a position to in a very sensitive way look at these issues, as to how it should be managed, not only for the Monarch, not only for you personally, but also especially for your officials who have to handle these very sensitive matters.

My family have been residents of this Province for 158 years.  That is how far my roots go back.  We have lived very comfortably side by side with the Zulu people.  We love this Province, we love the Zulu people.  We respect the Monarch and we respect the ~Amakhosi~.  We respect the traditions that the ~Amakhosi~ stand for.  I am very happy to be able to say that I feel with those sentiments, I am totally comfortable within the National Party, that that is also the view of my colleagues in the party.

Having this view, we believe the time has really come for us to look very carefully again at the need for a Constitution, so that these things are set in stone now and that we give permanence to the institution of the ~Amakhosi~, to the institution of the Monarch.

I believe it is paramount that we also look at the task undertaken by the House of Traditional Leaders.  We need reformation in and amongst the ~Amakhosi~.  We know there is a cry for entitlement of land.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could the two hon members please close their microphones because it is disturbing us.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am so glad it was not aimed at me.  I think the time has really come for us to look very carefully also at land entitlement of our Zulu people in the tribal areas, because without that economic empowerment is really not possible.

Now I believe firmly in indigenous and customary law, but I believe it can be modernised to address this thorny issue. Because, if we could address that issue of land ownership and what role the Inkosi still can play in the isigodi or the Ward where the people live, I am absolutely convinced that we can still create a sunrise situation for the ~Amakhosi~, even in the new South Africa, notwithstanding what other people or other parties may think about this.

This is a fact of life of this Province and it is a fact of live of Africa.  There where the African traditions and culture has been neglected in the rest of Africa we see what has happened to those countries.  For real stability we must respect what we have in the ~Amakhosi~ structures.

Then I would like to move on to the issue of the capital, because when you just say "capital" then it seems as if sparks should fly.  Now I really believe if you take the political climate at this stage of our history, some three years after the major elections that we have had, some two years away from another election, I believe that we are in becalmed waters politically speaking in this Province, as we are meeting here today.

I believe that we as elected leaders have been empowered to deal with these issues.  I believe that this House is capable of addressing the issue.  If we call for a referendum on this issue:

(a)	It will be politicised; and
(b)	I do not think we would come up with a suitable answer in the end.

It would be such a compromise that it would sour relations again between our parties.  We do not need that, not if we want the progress and development and especially the tourism and foreign injection of money here, that we so desperately need.

So through you, Mr Chairman, I believe, Mr Premier, I think the time is very, very ripe that this forum, this House, address the issue of where the executive seat of this Province should be, where the Legislative seat of the Province should be, where the House of ~Amakhosi~ should really nest.  I do not believe it should nest anywhere else but in that beautiful building in ~Ulundi~.  It is an ideal venue.  Parliament never sits that often that we cannot make space for the House of Traditional Leaders to also meet in that forum.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I really believe we have reached calm waters.  I am very sincere about this.  I believe that we have the will amongst our ranks here and we have the integrity, there is so much at stake that we could not afford to let this matter go wrong or for it to falter.  We really as a Province, loving this Province, we cannot afford to falter on this issue.

I really believe that amongst our ranks there is enough goodwill for us to really address this issue now and to see exactly what we really do, because the solution is not just going to be a simple one to say ~Ulundi~ is the capital full stop.  I believe we can think in terms of twinning of cities, of twinning of Legislative buildings and venues.  I sincerely believe that the time is right for us to address this, us as the elected leaders in this Province.  Thank you Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Rajbansi who will address the House for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  When the hon Premier commenced his speech he gave us a message of hope.  I want to say that from 1 March this year a wonderful breeze is blowing throughout our Province under the excellent, able and dynamic leadership of our Premier.

When I say our Premier, I concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon Mr I C Meer.  That a member of the Executive Committee, the Premier of our Province is not the property of a political party.  He is the father of our Province.  Father of a united nation in spite of its diversity and in spite of its multi-cultural composition.

Today I want to repeat the words of a great pacifist, Mahatma Gandhi who said in 1947, that the real freedom is the removal of the tears and the sufferings from the millions who suffer in our villages.  I think it has been recognised, very clearly, by every political party in our Government, that until such time as there are no more tears and suffering in the dark villages of our Province, our task is not over.

Therefore I want to say that I give our hon Big Ben today another title, the Premier of Hope.  There is no doubt about the fact that when there is hope there is courage, when there is courage we can remove all obstacles.  I say to the hon Premier that the initial turbulence, after having experienced the birth pains of freedom, are now over.

We have great faith in the Premier.  We have great faith in the free democratic governance of our country and we have great faith in the future of our country.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Can I ask the hon Rajbansi a question please?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  It is a very fair question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Provided I get an extension of time.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Do you want to become MEC of gambling?  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  In any case, for the benefit of that hon member we will appoint him the honourary MEC in charge of mischief making affairs in this Province.  [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Accepted.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, as the hon leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party has stated, and I believe that is the foundation pillar of his political party that this Province is a multi-cultural Province.  We are not going to use culture, we are not going to use religion to divide the unity of this Province as enunciated by our great King Shaka.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I want to make a case for the minority Indian community, that arrived here under devious means, through the colonial Government at the time, to save this Province from a certain economic disaster.  We saw from 1 March the appointment of the first Indian into the Cabinet.  We saw from 1 March the appointment of the first Indian on merit as an area police commissioner of this Province.

Therefore the message in the Indian community under the able leadership of our Premier is a message of hope but his Department, his office is the only Department wherein significant appointments, the existence of the Indian community has not been recognised.

I make a case, and I will do it unashamedly, I am here as a result of a mandate from a particular constituent in the Province and I will continue doing so.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Give the Indian community also a place in the sun and I have all the confidence and the Minority Front will back you and there are no slush funds in our Province.  Anybody who says there are slush funds in our Province, is making the greatest untruthful statement in the history of this Province.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Next to take the floor will be the hon Mrs Millin who will address the House for five minutes.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  It is a pleasure to follow on after those warms words of support for our Premier from the hon member Mr Rajbansi .

The Premier's Department's allocation of just R86 million with R158 million now moved back to the Finance Department represents 0,98% of the total budget for KwaZulu-Natal, if my figures are correct.

It was most encouraging to hear from our Premier that the financial fundis are already combining their collective wisdom and expertise in preparing the 1998/1999 budget.  One trusts, hopefully not in vain, that when the recommendations of our Budget Council are submitted to the National Council for approval, they will be more than adequately dealt with.  Particularly, when one takes into consideration that a considerable majority of our population is rural and under-developed.

One trusts therefore, as our Budget Council draws up its collective plans, that their emphasis or focus remains fixed on motivating the National Government's coffers of the extreme urgency in tackling our Province's needs and that frugality in our requests takes a justifiable back seat in this case.

With regard to the so-called slush fund, yet another of those misnomers so beloved of some of our hon members, and then faithfully seized upon by our slogan crazed media, that do not happen to be here at the moment, and to which I will now refer, as our Premier prefers, as the Contingency Fund for KwaZulu-Natal.

This is to be administered by the Premier's Department for distribution to all or any department as, when or where the need is greatest, a perfectly legitimate procedure I would contend.

In respect of building plans for ~Ulundi~.  While recognising that there is a lack of unanimity on this issue, it is an undeniable fact that there is a serious deficiency in office space for departmental officials.  For example, with our Government having to spend millions on hiring accommodation in Durban and Pietermaritzburg.  In Ulundi, however, there is no accommodation available to hire.  So even a primary school child could deduce that the only alternative is to build the required accommodation.  Certain hon members, please take special note and especially our former teacher the hon member Mr Burrows.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS T E MILLIN:  I would like to add my voice to that ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  Order! Order!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, the hon member is not crossing the line between me and the speaker, I am sorry.

AN HON MEMBER:  Wake up.

MRS T E MILLIN:  I forgive you, Alex.  I would like to add my voice to that of the hon member Mr Schutte, in voicing his support of our Premier's proposal that socio-economic development along the lines of the former Buthelezi Commission and the KwaZulu-Natal Indaba, is a much needed priority.  With someone of Premier Ngubane's unquestioned calibre, to initiate and spearhead such a development commission, involving the key factors, such as the KwaZulu-Natal private sector, Provincial Government, labour, emerging black business as well as the NGOs.  I would urge the powers that be, to wholeheartedly support his proposals and implement A.S.A.P.

In speaking to the S A Chamber of Business recently at a congress held in Ladysmith, our Premier also referred to the appalling and ever spiralling rise in violent crime.  Without doubt of major concern to all of us and which, if allowed to continue unhindered, will degenerate into mobocracy.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Rendering all orderly Government to an irrelevant footnote on the pages of history.  However, I will speak about this unfolding calamity if and when I speak in further debates.

May I endorse our Premier's earlier appeal, that our budget not be reduced to a party political tool, an all too seductive a temptation sadly for all politicians it seems, including myself.

No, our budget limited as it is, must be wisely and equitably distributed as it is far too important for all KwaZulu-Natalians, for us as politicians to play politics with.

May I respectfully remind this hon House that we in KwaZulu-Natal have been blessed with two of South Africa's finest and most distinguished sons.  First our former Premier and now our Premier Dr Ngubane, who was elected to office with the wholehearted and unanimous support of every member of this House.  I trust our Premier will continue to receive the support and encouragement of all of us, to rise to the daunting challenges that lie ahead.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, may I add my voice in support of this budget.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you Mrs Millin.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi.  Who will address the House for four minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, it is gratifying to have to stand and speak after such a lady.  I may not be agreeing with all what she has said but I think she has spoken very well.

Even before I say anything more, I want to support Miss Nahara's statement in toto.  That the Premier should make sure that the issue of the gender equality must be taken with more seriousness.  Something has to be done about it.  I have been in a conference and surrounded by all beautiful women in Namibia.  Besides that they were beautiful women I think we need to support them because by supporting them we are supporting ourselves.

It is true as she said, that when we deal with the gender issues we must not talk about them as being women issues like some of the men say because I am always with the women, they say [Oh, he is the supervisor of the women this one]. 

I stand to support the Premier's vote.  When the Premier was elected we all committed ourselves that we will support the Premier.  I am therefore supporting the Premier's vote with all my heart and with all my little power that I have.

I have one or two things to say.  I do notice here, unfortunately hon Mr Rajbansi is not here, although he usually says these things in a sort of, shall I say a negative way that this place is full of ~"umlungus"~.

I do not think that is how I see it.  How I look at it, if you look at this book, at this report, you will see that all the top posts, except one, where there is one in second command, they are all seats or positions occupied by the people who have the experience, the people who were always ahead.  This is history, perhaps we cannot help this.  We have to live with it for some time.  I am only proud that one who appears there is one of my students.  So I made a contribution to KwaZulu-Natal.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  But then in this legal book I see, Mr Premier, there are a lot of acting, acting, acting, acting.  Will the Premier perhaps when he replies, give us the reason why.  Is it because he does not have the manpower or the womenpower to fill those posts.

AN HON MEMBER:  He was Minister of Arts and Culture.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Perhaps on this thing there is a disturbing article here which says, "Affirmative action rethink in the US".  What has that to do with KwaZulu-Natal, and what has that to do with South Africa?  Even the US they are rethinking about affirmative action.  Is this trying to influence us, to rethink about affirmative action?  The answer is no.  America has gone a long way, they can do their rethinking.  We should continue with affirmative action.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ndonga.  Next to take the floor will be the hon member Mr Khoza who will address the House for five minutes.

MR S E R KHOZA: 


TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the Premier on his speech which was as clear as crystal regarding his Department.  I also want to add my support to what Mr Burrows, and Mr Jeffery, and Mr Tarr, and many others, there are too many of them I cannot count them all, who said the same thing praising the good deeds that are happening in this our Parliament.  By this I am referring to the good progress that we are making here in Parliament.

There is not one of us here who ever thought that by this time that we are at now this Parliament would still be in existence, if one took into account the bickering that used to go on.  On top of that that this Parliament would be proceeding in the manner that it is proceeding in today, because of the hatred that the big parties exhibited for each other.

I am happy to say that that situation no longer prevails.  I remember the day when the Committee for the Environment went to the Indumo Game Reserve, where I was made to sleep in one room with Mr Xaba of the ANC, whilst I was IFP. [LAUGHTER]  The thought crossed my mind to go outside and sleep outside in the bush, because I did not believe that I would be alive at daybreak.  I preferred to take my chances with the hippos and the crocodiles rather than him.  Today that situation no longer prevails.  I am thankful, I am grateful we must continue forward in this vein.

There are two men that need to be thanked for the situation which prevails today.  Those men are Mr Nyanda, and Mr Msholozi.  Their bravery is great indeed, it is true that bickering will never help the black person.  Our fighting does not develop the level of the lives of the people who chose us to come and rectify the things which pertain, and to look after their lives.  I would hope that the spirit which prevails in this Parliament will continue always.   I do not doubt that it will indeed be so, because Mr Mbomvu is exactly the same as Nyanda, if not more so, and he is younger he has a lot of power and zest and drive.  Mr Chairman, the Premiers Department, is a very difficult department.  The matters that it has to deal with are delicate, they need a lot of skill.   Matters such as finance and crime, matters pertaining to the King are very delicate.  Matters need to be looked at both from a Western and an African perspective because the traditions are not the same.

Regarding crime even though we have a Department of Safety and Security but it is the Premier who gets it in the neck.  A lot of things have contributed to the worsening crime situation in our country in KwaZulu-Natal.  The laxity of the law the fact that people do not have jobs, the rising birth rate, the people are being born at a tremendous rate means that people do not have the means to support their own lives.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [The hon member has one minute left].

MR S E R KHOZA:
TRANSLATION:  The Prince of Nkombabantu who is the Minister of Education in this Government, said that the environment that we are creating breeds crime and I agree with that statement.  We the black people had a way of bringing up our children which caused our children to afraid of embarrassment and shame.  Today embarrassment and shame is not something that people are afraid of, rape is something that todays boys are proud of, courting is something to be embarrassed or ashamed of.

You hear a boy saying "Hay you come here or I am going to get you" while so saying he has already taken out his knife, what must a child do under those circumstances and then things go wrong.  However we need our Provincial Police Department to be given greater powers to counter this crime...  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR S E R KHOZA:  Ngiyabonga.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker is the hon member Mrs Downs who will speak for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you.  Mr Chairman, because I have got such a short space of time I am going to speak at a great gallop.  One of the things that happened in one of the church things that I attend was when the preacher wanted to get our attention he started to sing "Oh my darling, oh my darling, oh my darling paradigm".  I believe that that is where we are in our departments at the moment.

We are caught in the old paradigm and we need a paradigm shift to good governance.  I am glad that the Premier spoke about good governance today.  I really do give him and his predecessor credit for instituting this programme.  I am sorry that I have to say a few words of criticism here as well because I believe that criticism can be constructive and it is because I want to be constructive.

In good governance we have got a situation for example, in the Peace Committee, where a member has been charged with fraud and theft and is currently sitting in gaol.  But his car that he used, which is provincial property and his cell phone and the computer which also belongs to the Province have not been recovered.  This is where good governance has to actually rise, take feet and bite.  We have to implement now the things that we have been talking about.  I know that it is difficult to shift paradigms and I am aware of that.  In management it is a very difficult thing.

I am appealing to the Premier that he actually use some of that R158 million to set up maybe a situation, an overall situation overseeing all departments where this good governance programme can be actioned.  Because, when the public hear of incidents of this nature and of other people sitting in gaol for two years and still receiving salaries, they do not believe that we are serious about doing something about corruption.  I believe that you are.

The second thing that I want to talk about which I think is the next most important thing, is in all this budgeting and budgeting planning and so on, I believe that we are still stuck in our old paradigm where we plan from year to year and we do not have a macro development strategy.

I believe that budgeting should be planned in five year cycles, number one.  The second thing, I believe, is that we should have a macro development plan in the Province so that for example, when we build a clinic and the Department of Health wants the clinic built in a certain place, the Department of Transport will put the road in and perhaps we can use it as a pay point for the welfare, for people to come because they congregate at the clinic anyway and we can maybe build a school nearby.  In that way we can consolidate our development and plan for it properly and I believe that that is good governance as well.

So I would also propose that you use some of the R158 million for a five year macro development strategy and plan for the Province, and I would really appeal to you to do that.

The third matter I want to speak about is probably far more controversial, His Majesty the King.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I know that there is an Act which is current, that we have to live under, which says that the President of the country sets the salary, policy and the other benefits of His Majesty the King.  If the President of the country has to set those things, then I believe that he should bear the cost of that. That would free up 3 million in this vote anyway for further development plans.

I would like to touch lastly on this R158 million.  I have great sympathy for the Premier and the reasons for him wanting to use this for a fast track development because of the way that departments take so long to do things.  I would like the Premier's assurance that he can drive it, that the departments can submit business plans in time, that they can be actioned and implemented in this financial year, if he gives me that assurance then I can support this.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Waugh who will speak for five minutes.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Chairman, let me at the outset say that I am pleased to be a member of this Legislature.  I am of the opinion that the wellbeing of the people in KwaZulu-Natal is decided in this chamber.

Therefore, I would like to thank my party and my colleagues for making it possible for me to be part of this process, and also to all the other colleagues in this chamber in the kind manner in which I was received in the Province.

I would like to mainly deal with the youth matters in KwaZulu-Natal, as the youth is a very important grouping in our Province and also very important to us on this side of the chamber.

Let me start by telling you a true story.  In Germany some years ago, the youth were requested to write a script for a play or movie illustrating the main problems facing youth.  Many of the youth dealt with issues like Aids, drugs, teenage pregnancies etcetera.  One person wrote a script with a cover that was very elaborate and busy.  All over the cover were the words in different sizes, "Keine Zeit", which means no time.

In the script he said that wherever we as young people go and ask questions, or ask people for assistance we are faced with one standard answer and that is, "Keine Zeit", which is no time.

Nobody in the eyes of that young man seems to have had time for young people.  This is what the young person saw as the major problem facing the youth today.  I need not say that the script won the competition.  Let us in KwaZulu-Natal not be accused by our youth of precisely that.

Let me congratulate the Premier on his first public appearance as Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, which was at the youth summit held in Durban on 1 March.  The youth appreciates his interest in their affairs.  This summit was a step in the direction of establishing a Provincial Youth Commission.  One of the aspirations of the youth at that summit, was that the commission be in place by 16 June this year.

On behalf of the young people in this Province, I would like to urge the Premier to meet this aspiration.  This will send out the message that we as the leaders in the Province do have time for the youth.  I need not emphasise just how important youth as a sector in our Province are, as well as in the Province, as well as in the country.

By the next election most of the voters will be the youth of today.  Therefore any youth matters must be youth centred but more importantly they must also be youth driven.  May I caution us in this Province that the initiative of establishing a youth policy for our Province be an initiative of the youth in the Province and not an initiative of the National Youth Commission.

I must admit that a Bill which has been drafted makes provision for there to be appointed a Provincial Youth Commission to co-ordinate and develop an integrated provincial youth policy among other briefs.

If we stick to this provision it will ensure a youth policy which is provincially based and youth driven.  Remember democracy works from the bottom up.  When we get to youth matters this must also apply.  We must also remind ourselves of this, especially when one reads recommendation one in the report on the budget.  Should this recommendation not be the very first task of the Youth Commission?

I am pleased to say that we in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal are coming in line with international trends by establishing a Youth Commission.  May I inform the House that it is no coincidence that the only countries that have youth ministries are communist and socialist countries.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR J N C WAUGH:  We must nevertheless bear in mind that establishing a Youth Commission is one thing, empowering it to execute its brief is another.

This commission will be faced with many social and economic problems.  To mention a few, lack of education, increase of juvenile crime, drug abuse and many others.  To deal with these problems our Premier will have to ensure that the proposed commission be fully capacitated.

In closing, let me emphasise that not only the Provincial Government but the KwaZulu-Natal society as a whole should accept ownership of the development of young people.  Civil society, NGOs, religious institutions and parents should form a partnership with the Government, the private sector and other stakeholders in the vital matters of addressing the youth's many needs and problems.

This can be achieved only if they compliment each other's efforts regarding youth development.  Let the people of KwaZulu-Natal and this Parliament not be accused of "Keine Zeit", no time, but rather of putting the interests of the youth first.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Next on the list of speakers will be the hon member Mr Bhengu who will address the House for ten minutes.  I wish to remind the House that this is his maiden speech.  I have forgotten to mention that with the two other speakers, that was Advocate Madondo and Mr Waugh, but I wish to mention that now because we come from the same area as Mr Bhengu.  So please treat it with respect.

MR G E BHENGU:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and the members of the House.  Quite rightly I am a maiden speaker today but I did at one stage do the same work at ~Ulundi~ Parliament.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, to be able to come here to see big things happening when the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal made his speech with not a single complaint and with no noise whatsoever.

He made the most informative speech, which we know was a speech of a man that has given himself, to serve his people.  I do remember that it is a long way where we have come from as IFP, whereby a lot of people have not realised that we have struggled for this country and for this Province.  Some of our members that are here will agree with me that some of us departed, and a lot of our people died.  In fact more than 400 people died because we were struggling for our country trying to get better and trying to see that our children should get a place or homes in the future.

I must say this in this Parliament, I praise our leader, the leader of the IFP who in all he did, was showing us the right direction, he was trying to make this day possible and this day to come through so as to enjoy the fruits of our country.

I always say some women, like Mrs Mkhize, knows the way we struggled.  At times we spent days and nights out in the jungle, not only the two of us but many of us, have done so.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

MR G E BHENGU:  Well, Mr Chairman and the House, as much as we have come here to say ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please.  Can we allow the member to continue with his speech?

MR G E BHENGU:  As we have come here to say, "Well done Mbovu, may God bless you", I praise the people that have sent me here and I also praise the people that we represent in our constituencies and also in KwaZulu-Natal as a whole.

I did in fact have some preparation for this but I do realise that the time is no longer suitable.  So what I will do now is to announce a few things that I think are very problematic in my life and my people in the area where I come from.

One, I must report that your people are suffering where I come from.  There is no food.  There are no houses.  That is what I must say first of all.  If we see this list that was faxed to me today, that the people are dying.  Just the two last weeks we buried about 12 people who were murdered or raped and murdered.  So I do believe that the Premier and some authorities should get a way of trying to stop that hullabaloo and killing that is taking place in our area, more especially in the KwaMashu area and surroundings.

There is one other thing that I would like the House perhaps to clarify for me.  This slogan or sentence which says, "People shall govern in the human rights", I do not know what it really means because when they say that people shall govern, which people and how?  We are the people in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, but we are not allowed to have our own members or Department of Safety and Security.

If that is true that the people shall govern, I say no.  We are part of the people that should govern because if we fail to govern why, because we have already done it before?  We did have a police force in ~Ulundi~ when we worked at ~Ulundi~.  Nothing went wrong. 

However, the Minister of Safety and Security, Mr Mufamadi, should soften his heart and come and speak to the authorities of this Province.  We do have a police force which is going to look after the people in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

I do have to say now if at any given stage the people that are dying, the people that are not looked after, they will ask their blood from the Minister of Safety and Security.  I thank you, Mr Chairman and the members of the House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you hon member Mr Bhengu.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Xaba who will address the House for 14 minutes.

MR V C XABA: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman thank you Chair, for giving me this opportunity.  It is always a disadvantage to talk at the end because a lot has been said before me.  Now one finds oneself repeating what has already been said by others.

Notwithstanding that I will not sit down without touching on two or three things which already have been mentioned in this House, in this very debate which we are engaged in, that is the Premiers debate.  But I want to start of by saying that what has just been said by Mr Waugh, I agree with it with all of it 100%, I cannot agree more.

He touched on something that I think is something which all of us in this House should be concerned about.  He spoke about the youth and the youth needs, that in every thing that it does we must try to put forward those things that will cause our youth to be in a position to make South Africa proud of its youth, notwithstanding the deaths and problems that we have had Mr Chairman.

He also spoke about the need, as has already been suggested that there should be what is known as a Youth Commission.  Because without a Youth Commission Mr Chairman, it would be very difficult for all the Ministers or the Ministries, that is all the Ministries that have programmes that concern the youth.

You will find that all the programmes will be gathered together and once they have been gathered together properly there will be no duplication, by duplication I am referring to the repetition of things, because if there is duplication, there will also be a waste of resources which are at our disposal.

We need to have one standing program which we will follow and which we followed by everybody who are involved in the program of changing South Africa especially in this Province that we are in, the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.   I am referring to the Ministers who are in charge of all the separate departments.

I would be happy if the Premier of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal would take what has just been said now about the Youth Commission to heart and not disregard it.  Also regarding this undertaken that he has made that he should insure that it is fulfilled.  

I read his entire speech Mr Chairman, and I discovered that there is no mention of a Youth Commission.  There is no mention of a program by the Premier which is specifically designed to cater for the needs and the situation in which the youth our youth finds itself.

Mr Chairman, I am referring to people who occupied the front trenches at the time of the struggle.  The people who were the victims of that violence, who ended up becoming orphans Mr Chairman.  Some of them ended up not being able to continue with their schooling.

Mr Chairman, if you do not look after that youth, what type of country do you think we are going to end up with.  You can complain about the escalation of crime and other things, and call Mr Mufamadi to intervene and so on.  But if your programmes that you have in place are not set up in such a way in order to counter those things which caused them to get involved in these things such as crime, violence, if we cannot deal with these things you will be dealing with what is known as after the fact.

At all times you will be reacting rather than preventing things that might happen.  Mr Chairman, what I am trying to say is that there is a need for us to sit down and improve our thinking, we must think together with the parents because if we do that all these AK47, all these G3s, all these firearms that are all over the place in our communities, they will come back because they will no longer have a place and there will not be anything for them to do.

Mr Chairman, I want to reiterate again and talk about the ~Emandleni~ ~Mathleng~ Youth Camp.  The ~Emandleni~ ~Mathleng~ Youth Camp uses R5.4 million.  You find that the Agricultural Colleges the two Agricultural Colleges that we have in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal, you find that they use R5.4 million for two Colleges Mr Chairman.

How it would be if the ~Emandleni~ Youth Camp was converted into a Youth College.  Which would be able to ensure that once the children had passed through it, at least those who want to go to Universities or to the Technikons, at least they would have course credits and be able to enter those institutions. 

Those that want to go to the Technical Colleges who want to continue to create jobs for themselves, they would be able to do so because they had received certain skills, they would be able to do this.  In other words if we create what we know as Youth Colleges Mr Chairman, we would be taking a step in the right direction in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

We will be able to meet all the needs which we have in this society of ours, you will find that we are able to meet them.  This is the message that I am sending out, and I am sending it to the hon Minister and I am also sending it out to the Minister of Education.  I am saying to them that unless they are able to push this thing forward we will continue to be confronted with these problems in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Mr Chairman, I know that my time is short but I want to say that if we do not do this we will not be able to confront and deal with the problems.  As far as the Emandleni Youth Camp is concerned a lot of people have a problem because it has been painted with a dirty brush in an incredible way.

People who came from this Youth Camp, some of them who were wearing T-shirts, where at the front of the attack of the homes of people Mr Chairman.  Your house was attacked by some who were wearing T-shirts which had ~Emandleni~~Mathleng~ Youth Camp written on them.  The leader there was the National organiser of the IFP Youth Brigade, Ntwe Mafolo.

What I am trying to say is that unless we are committed to overhauling these things we will fail to do what is necessary and it will look as if we just want to keep those things which we are proud of, not only to the people of South Africa or all the people that are in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, but to the people of a particular party.

If Mr Chairman, we were able to this it would be of great joy to me and to all the people of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  I am about to sit down because you are about to tell me to sit down, but I want to say that I will always repeat that the people who live in the rural areas do not receive the care and the attention that the people that live in the towns receive.

You can collect all the monies that you want, but unless there is some type perhaps of a commission that is formed which contains members of Parliament for an example.  In this Commission they must not talk politics but they must talk about development, development, specifically in the rural areas.

Now we will be to take those people out of difficulties which they find themselves in at this time in which we in live.  Because if we do not do that there is section of the community which will always blame us and point fingers at us.

I would be happy if this R5.4 million that has been allocated to ~Emandleni~ Youth Camp, if an attempt could be made to look at it because it has been allocated to 250 scholars, that means one scholar could receive a bursary of R20 000.00.  What can one person do with R20 000.  I am trying to say all these things that are wasteful, but yet we say we do not have money, we do not have money, you will hear the Ministers when they talk tomorrow they say we do not have money, we do not have money.

The truth is the money is there, it is hidden there who ever says that I will say, I spoke about money which is there and there and here why do you not go and look for it.  Mr Chairman, I do not want to say too much.  I will ask you indulgence to sit down.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  Finally, I wish to call upon our Premier to respond.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to thank my colleagues for a very spirited debate and all the constructive things that they have presented as opinions, as observations this afternoon.  I am really encouraged by the words of appreciation and acceptance of the things that I have presented to this House, particularly good governance, right-sizing of the public service, attention to effectiveness of our services and customer orientation.  I think with these principles we can start reshaping the image of Government.

Mr Burrows made a point of giving me his proposed amendments.  I really wish that Mr Burrows will not proceed on this path because he has not helped us at all.  He has simply said such and such a department must be given so much money, without giving any motivation.  But on top of that, he is doing exactly what has been happening in the past, which has been just giving money to departments, without any evidence of how far they have prioritised their programmes and their activities towards targeted communities who need very urgent help.

At least we are trying to grapple with this real difficult issue.  How do you bring help to those needy communities that need it very urgently compared to others?  That is what this Contingency Fund is all about.  Then you suggest that we abolish it, we have no Contingency Fund at all, we have no fund to address certain policy priorities, we just remain with money lying in departments, ending up with a roll-over from year to year with no delivery.

Dr Sutcliffe made this point very effectively yesterday.  I would have thought that our members would have listened to him.  We can assure you that we shall be responsible when we deal with allocations from this Contingency Fund.

Of course I would like to also congratulate the two members who made their maiden speeches today.  I think they show a lot of potential and they will grow to be good members of this House.  I am happy that we arrived at the same time.  They have had a less traumatic baptism in the House than I have had, but I think we will all pull it through.

Mr Chairman, I was a bit amazed with the reaction of the press about my remarks yesterday.  I am sincerely concerned with the manner in which reports come to be presented in the press.  I do not really want to blame the press because everyone then will say, you know, we are being authoritarian, we are being very stiff-necked and so on, we are against the press, but I am appealing to our colleagues in the Public Accounts Committee to clearly spell out what is fact and what is a supposition.

There were some thumb-suck figures about the ghost teachers.  This has done tremendous damage.  When I went to Cape Town the first thing the colleagues there in the National Cabinet talked about was these huge amounts that were going through to ghost teachers.  There is no objective evidence that in fact the scale of the problem is so huge.  That came directly from the Public Accounts Committee as a thumb-suck which was not put out to the press as a mere guestimate.  The press perceived it as a hard fact.

So when I say we need to relook at the Committee, I am not in the remotest sense suggesting that I would like to dismantle the Committee, anyone will know is that we are now in a constitutional state, a "Regstaat", that all action of Government and any official who is governed by the Constitution would know that I have no power to do such a thing.  The Public Accounts Committee is created from a formula.  Parties put out names for the Public Accounts Committee.  Of course under extreme circumstances I could go to the party leader and say, "I think your member is really playing politics in the Public Accounts Committee".

This is what I meant.  I meant that some members tend to use the Public Accounts Committee in a sensational manner.  I will always want to protect our public service because some of them are very good, most of them in fact are very dedicated.  We cannot just paint them with the same brush.  So I would really like to withdraw any impression I might have given that I want to restructure the Committee or want to dismantle it.  I would be crazy to do that and I think I am very sound from what Mr I C Meer said today.

I will not be able to respond in detail to all the wonderful suggestions.  I will just go through what we have noted here as a Department, not necessarily in a strict order.  For instance on youth matters.  You know I did not dwell on issues of youth affairs in my speech.  I have said that we will produce a White Paper.  We will produce a Green Paper and a White Paper on youth affairs as well as on the gender issue.

Those issues are very close to Government's heart because we know that if you empower a woman you are empowering probably five or six people in our African context and equally so, if we apply our monies for education not just to make our young people literate but also improve their numeracy we are creating manpower for our industries in the future.

As far as Mr Rajbansi is concerned, he is not here, I would have said I am very thankful for his supportive comments, but will just like to say to him that he should possibly give an indication of how much of the rainbow nation is reflected in his Minority Front.  [LAUGHTER]

As far as the Peace Committee funds are concerned, these are being transferred to Safety and Security.  Already the Department of Finance has agreed to effect such a transfer.  So that is where they will be housed.

Of course, I must just add with regard to the gender issue, that we are busy with the establishment of dedicated posts in the Department of the Premier to deal specifically with gender matters.  I am sure that the member is aware that in 1996 there were workshops and also early this year.  Commonwealth representatives did commend us for the way we have dealt with the issue of gender and of course there will be a White Paper.

As far as the policy regarding His Majesty the King is concerned, the policy document was developed to describe existing situations and to formalise policy for taking decisions on His Majesty's affairs when requests were received.  We are very grateful that in fact there is real convergence now between the ANC in the Province and ourselves on the common approach to the issue of traditional leadership, its significance and how it should be provided for.  So we are going to be increasingly spelling this out as we proceed with our negotiations.

Well, as far as, you know, the issue of the question of me holding back on Cabinet posts this is a matter before our Cabinet, we are talking about it, but of course the hon member is welcome to cross the floor.  [LAUGHTER]

As far as appointments are concerned, there does seem to have been inordinate delays.  We have had some problems in terms of the functioning of the Provincial Public Service Commission, but of course now we have had a lot of post structures approved and we are busy structuring advertisements and we will be filling these.  We will always have in mind the promotion of gender issues.  I take that point very, very seriously.  We have to turn a new leaf and see to it that there is real representivity of the gender issue in Government.

I must thank the hon Danie Schutte for his suggestions about pursuing the Constitution of the Province, very urgently.  It was unfortunate that when our provincial Constitution was presented to the Constitutional Court tensions were still very high between parties.  But nevertheless the climate is now conducive, we should attend to the issue.

As far as the issue of the capital is concerned, I would like to just state very briefly that we need to recognise that preferences for the purposes of determining a capital is based on various interests.  These interests are based on historical considerations, business considerations and the existing personal circumstances of individuals.  We must deal with this matter without disadvantaging any of the cities in question.

Both cities are dependent on Government activities for their viability.  When addressing this matter we should do so in a manner which will not threaten any of the cities and their futures.  By acting responsibly and sensitively we can resolve this issue in a positive manner and as I say, as the political climate changes I think it will be conducive to that resolution.

Development in either centre creates jobs in the private sector.  It is not the issue of just spending money irresponsibly.  You know, if I had my way I would see our monies going a long way to building lots and lots of houses.  When America wanted to take itself out of the depression it built lots and lots of roads, it generated lots of jobs.  We can do the same here in the area of housing because that will be expenditure that will stimulate all types of other secondary industries.  Unfortunately, the manner in which we are going about building houses generally does not create this opportunity.

There have been many other issues that one would have liked to address but nevertheless we need still to have a Cabinet meeting when we leave here so I will be limited.  I would like to thank the Chairman of my Portfolio Committee, the Portfolio Committee of the Department of the Premier, Mr John Aulsebrook, for a very sound presentation to the House.  I look forward to a continuing association and a close working relationship with my Portfolio Committee.  There are many, many issues that we have to tackle together and generally I must praise the work that the Portfolio Committees have done for this Provincial Government.  They have sensitised the public for the need of accountability on the part of Government and they have also taken the real concerns of the public into Government.

I thank you, Mr Chairman, I thank my hon colleagues.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  In view of the fact that we have reached the end of our debate on the Premier's vote and having caucused with the Whips, we are now going to adjourn for five minutes and after that we will come back here for the CPA meeting.  The House will then adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning and I therefore declare the House adjourned till tomorrow at nine.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, just on a point of order because I think colleagues will probably have raised the matter and certainly one has raised it with me now as you were about to adjourn the House.  I think we should indicate that amongst the Whips there is broad agreement that Rule 82 will apply and that decisions on the votes will be taken on the last day of the budget debate on 20 May.  Is that correct, sir?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is correct, Mr Burrows.  We are not going to vote on the Premier's vote now.  We will vote at the end of the debates.  The House adjourns till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17:47 UNTIL
	9:00 ON THURSDAY, 8 MAY 1997











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